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Pro and consumer versions including PXW-Z150, PXW-Z100, PXW-X70 / FDR-AX100


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Old May 4th, 2014, 04:40 PM   #1141
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Pat Reddy View Post
Getting back to the AX100, two of the reasons I sprung for the GH4 instead of the AX100 were better dynamic range on the GH4 (specifically fewer blown highlights and better highlight roll off) and my perception that there was small amplitude, high-frequency shaking (or micro-shaking) on the ax100 in telephoto focal lengths even when OIS was turned on. Ken, I observed this in some of your earlier samples. Don't remember if you had the OIS in active mode or not. Of course, acceptable stabilization is to some degree in the eye of the beholder.

Is my sense that this is an issue with the AX100 shared by others? I have read both that AX100 OIS is effective and that it doesn't measure up to earlier Sony 1080p camcorders. Is there any consensus on these things?
Pat, to be honest, in my A/Bs I actually could not say that the GH4 had better DR. I looked for it, but didn't see it. If either camera has an advantage here, it is not, IMO, a deal maker or deal breaker.

All my early tele shots were with Standard OIS. I was reluctant to use Active, which is definitely better than Standard, for fear of losing resolution. As time has gone on, I think that fear was unwarranted and I'm using it more than I had. I did not use Active in my A/Bs with the GH4, just as a point of information.

However, although the OIS on the Sony is not as good as the BOSS system they use with their small sensor cameras, I'll take it every day of the week over what I've seen in the GH4's OIS with tele lenses. The heat wave effect is just horrible, there's no other way to put it.

I don't believe I've seen any wave of AX100 owners that are unhappy with their cameras because of the OIS. It's very usable and fairly effective, if not as effective, as the better OIS implementations by Sony in their small cams.

So I'd much prefer an OIS that's somewhat less effective, but largely artifact-free, than one that has this 'heat wave' effect. IMO, that's just unusable.

Keep in mind that the only reason that Sony didn't put in the more effective OIS (at least this is the prevailing theory that makes sense) system in the AX100 is because the sensor and lens assembly is so much larger than in their small sensor cams.
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Old May 4th, 2014, 04:52 PM   #1142
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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SO, I'll hypothesize that at least some of the "micro glitching" we see is because we now see the tiny little movements, and because the rest of the image is so sharp, our eyes can't "unsee" them. We are attracted to the flaws by the way they stick out, where in a "blurry" (AKA lower definition!) image those flaws are covered up.
Dave, there's micro-glitching and there's the 'heat wave' effect. Two very different effects. IMO, 4K has nothing to do with the heat wave effect. I and others have seen it with the GH3 in good ol' HD.

Add to that the fact that the AX100 is free of this heat wave effect and I've come to the conclusion this is a 'Panasonic exclusive'.

Relating to your observations about 30p, I just bought a Toshiba 4K laptop. I will be using this as my main computer editor, either connected to an external 4K monitor (the 24" Dell or the 28" Samsung...if the Samsung ever comes off of back order status) or on its own 15.6" 4K screen, when away from home.

What's interesting about the Toshiba 4K laptop, is it has a native refresh rate of 60p. As a result, playing 4K files on it look very much like my 64" plasma with the frame doubler in effect. It's quite smooth and the individually calibrated 'Technicolor' screen is just awesome. This is why I've always implored anyone watching AX100 4K 30p files on their HDTV, directly from the camera, to engage frame rate doubling on their HDTV. It just makes for a so much smoother experience.
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Old May 4th, 2014, 04:54 PM   #1143
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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@Pat -

The OIS cannot possibly "measure up" to the BOSS "magic eyeball" system used in the 7xx (and some lower models as well) series Handycams - the floating gimbaled system was capable of smoothing out much larger motions than any prior system, but it would be HUGE if adapted to the AX100 with the larger lens and sensor block.

As I watched some user videos posted here again as a test of my 4K system/display, I was definitely thinking "time to pull out the old support rigs that have been collecting dust".... stability of the camera, along with "good camera technique" is once again an "issue". I'm thinking about shooting in windy conditions, handheld, all the "nightmare" shooting situations... stuff that was mostly left behind shooting a 7xx series BOSS equipped camera!

That said, for the most part, I'd expect the stabilization on the AX100 to be reasonably adequate if one understands the limitations. Myself, I'll go dust those "rigs"! And keep a 7xx series camera around for when it's a better "tool"!
Dave, I'm in the market for a light weight tripod for exactly that reason. I won't use it most of the time, but I'll have it for those windy days...like today!
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Old May 4th, 2014, 06:21 PM   #1144
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Hey Ken, did you get my email? I'll be in your neck of woods tomorrow, and i'll have my lightweight tripod :)
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Old May 4th, 2014, 08:34 PM   #1145
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Darren, no, never got a PM.

Which tripod do you use?

Edit: We actually moved from Plainview, further out on the L.I. about a year ago. I never actually updated my profile.
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Old May 5th, 2014, 01:24 AM   #1146
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst View Post
The OIS cannot possibly "measure up" to the BOSS "magic eyeball" system used in the 7xx (and some lower models as well) series Handycams - the floating gimbaled system was capable of smoothing out much larger motions than any prior system, but it would be HUGE if adapted to the AX100 with the larger lens and sensor block.
A bit off topic but since we are talking about stabilization, jitter and rolling shutter when zoomed in below a short clip made with my sony cx730 fully zoomed in, just to see the effect of the "magic eyeball".

The first clip was taken under time pressure, so I could keep it more steady if I can take my time but considering the circumstances I"m happy with that shot, notice how fast the camera the camera can zoom in, re-adjusts the whitebalance and exposure and gets the focus right, all of those where in automode at that time.

One question to ax100 owners, is the ax100 able to zoom in that fast? Just asking because Sony seemed to make some changes in that area, like on my rx10, for whatever reason. The rx10 can zoom faster but only in standby mode so it's a build in restriction.
Here's another one where I could take my time to handhold it steady.
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Old May 5th, 2014, 02:15 AM   #1147
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Don't have the camera yet, but the manual states, "The zoom speed will become a little slower during movie recording."
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Old May 5th, 2014, 06:49 AM   #1148
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Misunderstanding or wrong purchase?

I have just get the Sony Shoe adapter because I need to plug a led light or an additional mic. on AX100. This is the light: 312AS Bi-Color Changing Dimmable LED Video DSLR Camera Light Panel 3200k~5600k | eBay

On this forum you have told me that adapter is ok if I like to plug that light. Today I have get it: ADP-MAC- SONY MULTI INTERFACE SHOE ADAPTER for active interface accessories | eBay
but I cannot plug my led light and every other item like additional microphone because they have bigger shoes and they cannot fit on the Sony adapter shoe, that shoe is too much narrow.
Is it a wrong purchase? Do they have to send me another adapter; is it not the right adapter?
Thanks for some info.
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Old May 5th, 2014, 07:42 AM   #1149
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

There are several adapters so you need to get the correct one for your needs. I do not use ANY of them so you will need to check yourself what you need. There are some that just raise the shoe above the camera body ( I think that is the one you have) and then there is one that converts to the larger shoe. YOU need to check but I think it is the ADP-MAA

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Old May 5th, 2014, 08:55 AM   #1150
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Noa, the timing for the AX100 from full wide to full telephoto is as follows from my own testing:

* Camera in standby- approximately 3 seconds
* Camera recording- just under 5 seconds

It's quite possible that camcorders with larger lenses & sensors are more difficult to zoom at a very high rate of speed.
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Old May 5th, 2014, 09:53 AM   #1151
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

@ Noa, Ken -

We've discussed a few possible reasons for the "slow zoom" - physics of the larger lens elements is one possible reason (avoiding too much mass moving too fast, but it works OK when NOT recording?!), avoiding "bad" camera technique (crash zooms, despite their usefulness at times), and avoiding the capturing of zoom noise on audio (faster zooming makes a lot more noise as the motors and gears operate at the higher speed).

While I suspect all thee above could be "reasons" for the design decisions, only the last one has a very slight validity! And I think we ALL far prefer the OLD two step Handycam zoom system where it was possible with a light touch to throttle the zoom at slow speed, or punch it for a crash zoom! Even though the 2 step switches could be twitchy, they usually worked once you got the feel for them!

The "current" design philosophy may well be the result of online whinging over "I don't like the way my zoom works, it's too sensitive" (or whatever), and the "solution" was a single SLOW speed instead of a user adjustable single speed or the old 2 step.... perhaps sufficient amounts of online whinging over the "new improved" (that really ISN'T!) system will result in firmware changes to restore user choice?! The slow zoom in record mode is one of the very few widely criticized "features" of the otherwise well received RX10... I personally believe that a firmware "fix" via an added menu/switch selection is both feasible and desirable. (add 4k in, and unify the LANC while they're at it, dang it!)



@Adriano -
The adapter you apparently erroneously ordered is for MiS (current camera shoe) to AiS (previous accessory shoe), to allow use of "old" AiS accessories on the new MiS cameras, with the needed electronic connections. ALL you really need is a cheap COLD shoe riser, and a small file or Dremel type tool to mod the shoe to fit the camera by putting a couple notches in the base so it can fit into the shoe!! I will be modding my lights and such when I get hands on the AX100 so that they "fit"... or just use a bracket.

For whatever reason, Sony continued the oddball "notched" design of the AiS in the MiS, so that rather than the shoe having to slide in from an open "end", there are TWO openings in the "shoe rails", meaning there is a shorter distance for the "accessory" to slide into the shoe, but you must align and engage the notches, or as I suggest above, CREATE the needed notches on a cheap plastic adapter/riser.

Strangely, this is NOT an issue on the Cybershot MiS shoes, but IS on the Handycam(s?). I suspect this is due to some underlying architectural issues where the MiS may not have all the same features on both lines, so the Handycam MiS is notched to ONLY accept compatible accessories (??) - don't have any evidence to "prove" this other than the already discovered differences in LANC implementation that are dang annoying! But these cameras are two different lines from two different "divisions", and they apparently are NOT operating on the same page when it comes to accessories!!

Cybershots have to use their own "remote", and can't (at least thus far I haven't figured out a hack) use the MULTI adapter for old A/V jack LANCs, despite using the same controller chip (and likely) protocol... IOW, when is a LANC not a LANC? When Sony fiddles with proprietary implementations!!.
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Old May 5th, 2014, 10:21 AM   #1152
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

5 seconds in record mode is "doable", at least a lot more useful then the 13 seconds on the rx10, I don't think Sony builds this limitation in because they don't want their user to crashzoom or to lower the noise during zoom, we"ll probably never know anyway, it can be either intentional or a hardware limitation, in any case they should give us the possibility to choose the speed ourselves.

Some may doubt the usefulness of fast zooms but for reframing purposes in run and gun they are very valuable, especially when you shoot solo, which is what I only use them for. the zoom itself gets cut out in post.
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Old May 5th, 2014, 10:38 AM   #1153
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Ron Evans View Post
There are several adapters so you need to get the correct one for your needs. I do not use ANY of them so you will need to check yourself what you need. There are some that just raise the shoe above the camera body ( I think that is the one you have) and then there is one that converts to the larger shoe. YOU need to check but I think it is the ADP-MAA
The toothed and too big ring of the adapter doesn't plug on the AX100 shoe. Another guy did another wrong purchase. Sony makes me mad.
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Old May 5th, 2014, 10:42 AM   #1154
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst View Post
@Adriano -
The adapter you apparently erroneously ordered is for MiS (current camera shoe) to AiS (previous accessory shoe), to allow use of "old" AiS accessories on the new MiS cameras, with the needed electronic connections. ALL you really need is a cheap COLD shoe riser, and a small file or Dremel type tool to mod the shoe to fit the camera by putting a couple notches in the base so it can fit into the shoe!! I will be modding my lights and such when I get hands on the AX100 so that they "fit"... or just use a bracket.
I know cheap adapters are problematic. Look here: Delamax Adattatore per slitta standard per flash, per videocamera Sony: Amazon.it: Elettronica
Does anybody can give me the right, precise and reliable adapter for Sony AX100? I need it as soon as possible.
Thanks
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Old May 5th, 2014, 05:29 PM   #1155
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

It took just a couple searches to find this, which states AX100 compatibility:

Sony]Sony Multi Interface Shoe to Universal Cold Shoe Adapter | eBay Multi Interface Shoe to Universal Cold Shoe Adapter
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