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Old May 15th, 2014, 08:27 AM   #1216
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Again, don't be angry at the camera. I get 4K>HD playback directly from my camera to my HDTV that far exceeds any HD camera I've ever owned or seen.

So while producing superior HD playback on my HDTV today, those same 4K clips can be archived for true 4K playback whenever I get a UHD TV.
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Old May 15th, 2014, 10:51 AM   #1217
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Again, don't be angry at the camera. I get 4K>HD playback directly from my camera to my HDTV that far exceeds any HD camera I've ever owned or seen..
Can you explain better please? Do you watch only the clips or all Edius edited video directly from your camera to your HDTV?
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Last edited by Adriano Moroni; May 15th, 2014 at 02:46 PM.
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Old May 15th, 2014, 12:24 PM   #1218
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

@Adriano -

TO be quite blunt, getting mad at the CAMERA is ridiculous!

I do understand as I spent most of yesterday cussing out my new 4K computer, and most of the last week fighting with settings, some bad RAM, and generally figuring out how to get a functional "lo-budget" 4K capable computer up and running...

I'm hoping I figured out what was causing a random crash... found a sketchy connector in the wee hours that may have been the problem. Fingers crossed, but what I'm trying to say is that while getting mad is a natural reaction, I'm not going crazy thinking I'll just turn back the clock (this new setup is also very nice for HD, where my old core was "passable"...). My projects will still be there when I sort out the stability issues... Your clips will still be there when you figure out where the glitch is!!

You have bought a camera on the "bleeding edge" - it's like having a fast car, you may have to sort out the quirks and re-learn what you THINK you know! I don't doubt you are having some playback issues, but as is all too common, it's likely being introduced AFTER you take the clips out of the camera, presuming you didn't get a bad camera, but from what you say clips look fine BEFORE you process them.



I finally have my "beast" sitting here next to my desktop, waiting for me to get to it to do some test shots... dang skittery computer!

A few "first impressions":

There is a nice metal clip for a lanyard, right where it should be, the doors on this thing are a work of artful engineering, not worrying about their durability. The MiShoe is definitely going to require a cold shoe adapter... I'll probably build a 3 shoe one like in my post to your "shoe issues".that can be re-configured to a single as needed.

Controls are going to take a little bit to learn, but things seem to be "mostly" well placed... the camera is "small" but certainly significantly larger than a "typical" Handycam of the last few years - my old HC1 grew up and took some steroids or something! If one was worried about shooting with a "small camera", this one should reduce that concern quite a bit!

AVM1 and RMAV2 work perfectly (A/V LANC remote and the A/V - MULTI adapter) - now to figure out why they don't work with RX Cybershots, while the VPR1 MULTI controller DOES!?!?!?

A couple oddities - why did Sony use a nice "eye sensor" to just turn the VF on and off when the LCD is closed...why not use normal convention and switch between LCD and VF when you move up to the eyepiece - like on still cameras... or have a menu option to turn on BOTH, like the old FX7 - the eye sensor to turn the VF on and off would work great with something like that! SOMETIMES you want or need a quick check through the VF, but don't need the hassle of pulling it out to activate it, or fiddling with the LCD. The zoom rocker placement seems like it's slightly too far forward, but not a big deal, zoom speeds are slow and slower (IMO), but usable. The focus magnifier button is not TOO bad to reach, my right pinky can reach it fine, or doing a still camera style grip, the left hand can reach it.

I saw a "my button" menu item - got to figure out what THAT does - is it onscreen touch buttons, like prior Sonys... I don't see a "hard button" offhand, but the feature looks promising!
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Old May 15th, 2014, 12:31 PM   #1219
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

And FWIW, a little "feedback" from re-watching some of the previously posted 4K clips on a 4K system... my general impression is that you see a few more tiny "issues" with all the added detail than you do watching a 4K clip downrezzed to HD.... overall detail levels are of course much higher, so net results are "better".
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Old May 15th, 2014, 02:01 PM   #1220
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Alister Chapman View Post
Video sensor size measurement originates from the first tube cameras where the size designation would have related to the outside diameter of the glass tube. The area of the face of the tube used to create the actual image would have been much smaller, typically about 2/3rds of the tube diameter, so a 1" tube would give a 2/3" diameter active area, within which you would have a 4:3 frame with a 16mm diagonal.

An old 2/3" Tube camera would have had a 4:3 active area of about 8.8mm x 6.6mm giving an 11mm diagonal. This 4:3 11mm diagonal is the size now used to denote a modern 2/3" sensor. A 1/2" sensor has a 8mm diagonal and a 1" sensor a 16mm diagonal.
Thanks very much for that useful bit of info - not only did learn something, but it makes sense in your clear explanation.
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Old May 15th, 2014, 02:36 PM   #1221
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Adriano Moroni View Post
Can you explain better please? Do you watch only the clips or all Edius edited video directly from your camera to yourHDTV?
No, I watch my 4K projects on my 4K computer monitor and I create HD versions of those same projects for viewing on my HDTV.

As an example, I just created a 4K project in Cyberlink Power Director. This is a program I've been using for 4K just recently since I find it renders a visually transparent 4K project a bit better than Edius 7. By that I mean I see no visual loss between the original 4K clips and the finished rendered 4K project when viewed on my 28" 4K computer monitor. With Edius I was seeing a bit of detail blurring with motion. I found this surprising, but I did several tests and the results were always the same.

Even though Cyberlink is a relatively inexpensive program, it does an excellent job and at least in 4K, somewhat better than the far more expensive Edius.

But to your point, I took this 4K project and had Cyberlink render an HD project for viewing on my HDTV. I just watched it and it looks so good, I don't want to show it to my wife for fear she'll say we don't need a large screen UHD TV. It's that good.

Just a note on this Adriano, you can't put a finished project back on the SD card since the camera won't recognize it. I've never been able to do that with any camera I've owned that records to a card. It seems they all have their proprietary file structure that seems impossible to recreate.
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Old May 15th, 2014, 02:53 PM   #1222
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Timoecode? Does it have one?
Or does the counter reset every time you stop-start roll?
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Old May 15th, 2014, 03:04 PM   #1223
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst View Post
@Adriano -

TO be quite blunt, getting mad at the CAMERA is ridiculous!

I do understand as I spent most of yesterday cussing out my new 4K computer, and most of the last week fighting with settings, some bad RAM, and generally figuring out how to get a functional "lo-budget" 4K capable computer up and running...
Dave, my 4k Edius project settings is good to export to HD. I'm sure about it!! I have posted my Edius config. by screen shots some times on two newsgroups and Edius users told me my Edius config. is good.
My HDTV is giving flickering problems. It is an old HDTV (I spent much money to buy it, around 4.500 euros). My TV cannot support 25p and it is giving me problems.

Only to inform you. Today I have shot some XVAC S HD files with AX100 and I have edited them with Edius. I have exported to H.264/mp4 and I have watched an incredible HD quality of the video, above my expectations. What I don't like: I bought AX100 for 2000 euros and I have to shot in HD. In short time I will sell it and I will buy a 4K 50p camera.
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Old May 15th, 2014, 03:12 PM   #1224
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

I see no indication of time code in the manual maybe Ken can answer but if it is like my FDR-AX1 the counter starts and stops each time. C0001 etc. I do have a data code button etc on the FDR-AX1 which does not work either until the firmware update some time this summer ( !!!! ) maybe there will be an update to time code then as the AS100V with XAVC-S does have timecode as does the PMW-Z100 with XAVC.

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Old May 15th, 2014, 06:05 PM   #1225
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriano Moroni View Post
Dave, my 4k Edius project settings is good to export to HD. I'm sure about it!! I have posted my Edius config. by screen shots some times on two newsgroups and Edius users told me my Edius config. is good.
My HDTV is giving flickering problems. It is an old HDTV (I spent much money to buy it, around 4.500 euros). My TV cannot support 25p and it is giving me problems.

Only to inform you. Today I have shot some XVAC S HD files with AX100 and I have edited them with Edius. I have exported to H.264/mp4 and I have watched an incredible HD quality of the video, above my expectations. What I don't like: I bought AX100 for 2000 euros and I have to shot in HD. In short time I will sell it and I will buy a 4K 50p camera.
And still no indication you have tried to watch directly from the camera to the TV to see where the problem resides. I think you need a new HDTV more than a new camera, but nobody can convince you otherwise.

You'll never be happy and will always be convinced it's the camera, so yes, you should sell the camera.
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Old May 15th, 2014, 06:08 PM   #1226
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Ron Evans View Post
I see no indication of time code in the manual maybe Ken can answer but if it is like my FDR-AX1 the counter starts and stops each time. C0001 etc. I do have a data code button etc on the FDR-AX1 which does not work either until the firmware update some time this summer ( !!!! ) maybe there will be an update to time code then as the AS100V with XAVC-S does have timecode as does the PMW-Z100 with XAVC.

Ron Evans
Correct Ron. No time code and there is a reset with each stop and start as a new clip is generated. I don't think I've seen a different behavior since the days of tape.
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Old May 15th, 2014, 07:03 PM   #1227
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Cameras like my NX5U and NX30 have full timecode that can be set to operate like tape or to be free run so that for a multicam shoot it will be easier to edit afterwards even if the cameras are started and stopped at different time. In fact if you want them to start at zero each time they have to be reset.

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Old May 15th, 2014, 07:26 PM   #1228
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Anybody got a 4K resolution chart? If so, can anybody get an AX100 on it?

I'd love to see just how many lines it resolves.

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Old May 15th, 2014, 07:41 PM   #1229
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Cliff, I seem to recall that Slashcam tested it and found it was close to the limits of 4K (actually UHD if we want to get technical). It had the highest resolution of any 4K camera they had yet tested...including the GH4.
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Old May 15th, 2014, 09:28 PM   #1230
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Adriano Moroni View Post
Dave, my 4k Edius project settings is good to export to HD. I'm sure about it!
When I saw your first post I knew exactly what you were seeing as I first called it flicker/twitter. The problem with both names is that interlace video has "line flicker/twitter" and so for technical folks these names would not be right. So, I now call it "shimmer."

I watched your clips and you are absolutely correct, the shimmer is painful to watch. The tree leaves explode with shimmer. Here's a link to shimmer shot in the USA:


I saw it even on Sony's first demo videos which is why I immediately looked to see if the AX100 had a Sharpness control. (This is not the first Sony to have this problem--the V1 in Europe had it and Sony's recommendation was to dial down Sharpness.)

Shimmer has nothing to do with EDIUS as I use FCP X. This is BS being aimed at you so YOU feel you have done something wrong. One friend who looked at AX100 video at his house said, "Even Heller Keller could see the artifacts."

I tried shooting HD, but even if you shoot HD it will still have some shimmer.

More BS is to "connect the camera to the TV." In real life folks edit their video. And, they distribute via the internet to a wide variety of displays. (My family is scattered around the world.) Because, there is no way to force folks to use your monitor, some viewers may be lucky and see no shimmer, most will. This is very different than claiming that the AX100 looks fine on their TV or computer monitor! Thus, unless a camera can work the way real people work, it's a useless camera for them. Even worse--even if you do burn a 4K thumbdrive and watch on a 4K TV--the shimmer still shows-up. I tried this.

Now it's not that Sony can't build a good 4K camera. Watch videos from their $5000 AX1 and there's little or no shimmer. What's the difference between the cameras? Go to the German Slashcam site and read the reviews of the AX100 and AX1. Look at the frequency response (MFT) curves. The AX100 curve falls of early while the AX1 falls of much later.

Test : 4K, die zweite... Sony FDR-AX100: Sonstiges, in aller Kürze / Aus dem Messlabor

Test : Sony FDR-AX1 Messergebnisse: Einleitung / Schärfe/Auflösung

Which is better? Read the Blackmagic Pocket Camera review and look at it's HD curve and read the comments, which say it's the best curve they have ever measured. It falls off very very gently. "This is by far the smoothest Luminanzverlauf, we have ever measured in our editorial office."

Test : Blackmagic Pocket Camera - Erster Mess-Test: Einleitung

This also has zero shimmer:

So what is the big bump in the AX100's curve? Sony has dialed Sharpness up to near maximum. Which is why everyone comments that the image looks so SHARP. Unfortunately, professional cameras like the AX1 have DETAIL not SHARPNESS. Sony also dials up Contrast which we all know makes any image look sharper. The German site clearly says the AX100 image is "over sharpened."

"Leider tritt auch eine nicht abstellbare deutliche Nachschärfung zu Tage, ohne die das Sony-Bild deutlich cinematischer ausfallen würde" >> "Unfortunately occurs, a non-suppressible significant sharpening days, without the Sony picture would be significantly cinematic. >> Unfortunately, there is significant sharpening that can't be reduced, which if it could be, the Sony picture would be significantly cinematic.

They also say, "But what must not be, can not be with Sony. After all, this is a consumer device for 2,000 euros. And probably why Sony bangs still far too strong for our taste sharpening on the image produces the distinct halos around dark contours. And, this is typical for Sony consumer camcorder, unfortunately, can not be deactivated ..."

Folks are not seeing a real 4K image with fine detail from the AX100 -- they are seeing an "edge enhanced" better than HD image that fools consumers into thinking this is what 4K really looks like. Obviously, it has fooled a whole bunch of people. But, note the reviews at Slashcam that directly say they like the 4K GH4 better. "GH4 4K picture is almost perfect in HD Downskaling."

Several posters have already guessed that sharpness is the problem when they say to apply a filter, but I tried that and as you found, the result looks horrible. In my review, I explain all this in greater detail.

One last point, you'll notice the shimmer only when the camera is panning or zooming. The shimmer is dynamic aliasing. It will not show-up when a static test of resolution and aliasing is done. That's why Slashcam said the AX100 was free from aliasing. In the USA many test by slowly moving the camera back and forth because the measure is realistic since after all most video has motion.

Your impulse to sell it while it's in short supply is a good one. As soon as my review for DV magazine was finished, I sent the AX100 back to Sony. Np point in owning any camera that doesn't work in the way you need it to -- no matter what others say.

Good luck, Adriano.
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