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Old May 18th, 2014, 08:14 AM   #1261
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Adam Gold View Post
Deja vu, anyone? This pattern has been going on for a long time, on a variety of forums, with a variety of cameras, by this poster, who has a long history of this kind of complaint. It's always the camera's fault when someone refuses to read the manual, learn how to properly operate the gear, provide helpful data, or perform simple tests to determine the source of the problem. Steve's cavlier dismissal of playing directly from the cam to a decent monitor in the proper mode, because you can't expect your clients to do this, is completely inappropriate, no disrespect intended. You perform this test as an experiment to find out if it is indeed the cam, not because you expect all future viewers to do this.

If the raw video is perfect in this test, then it is up to you do make sure it remains so for your clients. But you can't blame the cam if you fail to handle the video properly.
I didn't realize there was a past history with this poster. Interesting.

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Ken's video looked great. Steve's, less so.
Thanks Adam, much appreciated.
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Old May 18th, 2014, 10:39 AM   #1262
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Adriano Moroni View Post
You are right. I made a test: if I put my HDTV the sharpnes=0 (zero) I see a few clips with flickering, it could be I found the solution ... but with sharpness=0 I watch a weak video with so little sharpens. It is better I shot in HD directly because I watch a better video.
Adriano I'll buy your camcorder for 500 Euro (I'm getting the risk that your camcorder is damaged)

Ugo
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Old May 18th, 2014, 11:05 AM   #1263
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

As I said, when I played back Adriano's clips without any scaling they looked fine. Even Adriano started off by saying the clips looked fine before encoding and that it was only after encoding that there was an issue. But Steve appears to have ignored that bit.
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Old May 18th, 2014, 01:17 PM   #1264
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

@Ken -

Adriano was referring to the setting adjustments I had to make to my jerry-rigged 4k "monitor", which I used to try to make him realize that "out of the box" settings may or may not work (and won't even touch on how older stuff may not work at all...). And I'm still not 100% satisfied with my colors, they are "close", but seem a little "off" somehow! The little 21" Samsung looks quite different as well, despite both being "calibrated"!

I'll be the first to admit my "monitor" is a "redneck special solution" to 4K display! But it boiled down to a computer that was overdue for upgrade, a desire to be "4K capable", and minimal budget! Discovering the Seiki 39" TV under $500 seemed like a way to pull off a cheap solution without totally breaking the bank (piggy is bandaged up, and will recover), and I picked up a used one WELL under that price... you can't expect TOO much for that price, it's bare bones... but it's working out fairly well!

That said, I'd read about the backlight, and it was "100%", I adjusted down to about 30-35... sharpness seems to look best at "0", nothing became fuzzy when I adjusted it or anything, so I don't even know if that control works! It did seem to look a little bit "smoother", but nothing spectacular (or horrific). Color was WAY over cranked (and may still be a bit, it's touchy). I couldn't even calibrate it at factory settings, again 30-35% seems to be getting close to the mark.

I only mentioned this to try to wake Adriano up to the facts - sometimes you have to be willing to put some time and effort in to find the "right" settings, configurations, techniques, etc. Simply dismissing bad results as a problem with a device that most everyone else is getting GOOD results from is silly!!
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Old May 18th, 2014, 02:22 PM   #1265
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

I did many tests. I always get flickering even if I use antiflicker filter or blur filter at 100%. Only if I put HDTV sharpening = 0 (zero) and antiflicker filter on the clips I get enough good video with less flickering.
I inform you I always shot where there is grass and trees, therefore my shot environment is greeen. It is a bad beast. ;)
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Old May 18th, 2014, 02:39 PM   #1266
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Adriano Moroni View Post
I did many tests. I always get flickering even if I use antiflicker filter or blur filter at 100%. Only if I put HDTV sharpening = 0 (zero) and antiflicker filter on the clips I get enough good video with less flickering.
I inform you I always shot where there is grass and trees, therefore my shot environment is greeen. It is a bad beast. ;)
You are not the only one that shoots scenes with plenty of grass and trees. We don't get what you say you're getting. It's not the camera, it's not the scene, it's something in your signal chain whether it be the editing process or your TV. We can only repeat this so many ways.
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Old May 18th, 2014, 03:58 PM   #1267
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

I have been shooting some weddings now with my rx10 (mainly covering the photoshoot with it) and I just saw the excellent review from Darren about the ax100, (see below) and the more I see about what the camera outputs and what functionality it has the more I feel the rx10 is not the right camera for me. I only wished it was not that much more expensive (rx10 is 1200 euro, ax100 is 2000 euro around these parts)

The rx10 is a great hybrid camera that gives me many manual controls for run and gun situations where I wouldn't dare to use my gh3 for, and also the gh4, but it has some quirks that have become very annoying. The zoomspeed is almost unusable for me, hate it as much as my ex, I tried to get over it thinking that I have a choice of several focal lengths at a constant f-stop without changing a lens but boy, it's slower then a snail, often when you start to zoom during record it can take a second before things even start to get moving and then it crawls ahead. As a solo shooter I just need a much faster zoomspeed then this, I missed some shots because of it and that's the last thing I need.

I also don't like it's stabilization, I didn't noticed at first until I saw my images on a big screen, even in active mode I need to apply post stabilization because there are "jitters" in the image when I zoom in too much and shoot handheld, so I loose resolution with the active mode + the image gets another resolution hit if I apply post stabilization, luckily it's a sharp image to begin with so I still manage to match it somehow with my other camera's.

Then there is still that recording limit so it's still not usable to record 1 to 2 hour sessions, like a ceremony or a dance recital.

The ax100 is a lot like my cx730 and with the exception that it doesn't have a variable zoomspeed (I can do very slow to very fast zooms and varying in speed with my cx730) but it seems to have a much more usable zoomspeed compared to the rx10 + can easily be used in a run and gun situation situation, it improves in many ways over my cx730 and there are a lot of videos already out there showing how sharp 1080p it can deliver. It actually is too sharp to match with my other camera's so that is a issue to consider.

Compared to my rx10 I get a sharper 1080p image, about the same shallow dof but with superior handling and functionality + it is a much more versatile camera, there is no recording limit, it has a parfocal(!) lens so can be used to shoot dancerecitals and from what I have seen matches the rx10 low light sensitivity though I have not seen side by side tests.

My rx10 slowly begins to feel like excess weight in my gearbag and the camera is holding me back sometimes so I might eventually sell it, I only find the ax100 a bit too expensive, especially since I still have my 2 handicam style cx730's to use when the going gets though.

Too many choices...:) I just saw the gh3 is being sold for 880 euro while the gh4 is going for 1500 euro, mm, maybe a second gh3 with a 35-100mm to replace my g6, sell the rx10 and wait for the ax100 to come down in price and buy it next year. :)

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Old May 18th, 2014, 09:01 PM   #1268
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Ugo Merlini View Post
Adriano I'll buy your camcorder for 500 Euro (I'm getting the risk that your camcorder is damaged)

Ugo
Ugo, with all the problems he has, that's a very reasonable offer! ;)
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Old May 18th, 2014, 09:13 PM   #1269
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

To show how easily one can blame a piece of equipment or software when the actual problem could be "OE" (operator error), here's a classic case...and yes, I plead guilty.

I was ready to shelve my favorite editing program that I've used for years, Edius Pro, for 4K editing. This was based on some blurring of fine details I was seeing when objects were in motion. Detail was perfect when these objects were static, but as soon as the objects were in motion, the blurring occurred. I was losing some of that 4K 'goodness'.

I tried two other editing programs and I got perfect renders that were visually lossless. So it must be Edius, right? Wrong. I sat there scratching my head as to why my editor of choice had suddenly let me down. So I dug into the settings and found I had a slight mismatch in frame rate. The AX100 records at 29.97fps and unbeknownst to me, the project had mistakenly been set up as 30fps. Pretty close, shouldn't cause much of an issue? Nope, big issue.

Once I correctly set the project to 29.97 and the export to the same frame rate, the motion became razor sharp as it was in the other two editing programs. What a relief! So here I was condemning Edius, when in fact it was my bush league error that caused it.

How careful we must be when pointing the finger!! :)
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Old May 19th, 2014, 02:21 AM   #1270
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Update on the Lanc situation. I picked up the two adapter cables I needed to connect my Canon ZR-2000 to the AX100.
Coming out of the camera's MULTI connector, I plugged in the Sony VMC-AVM1, which is the flat-style MULTI plug on the camera end, and a D-shaped jack on the other end. Next, I connected the second adapter cable, A-3AV. This adapter cable has the D-shaped plug on one end and the 2.5mm jack on the other. Total length is about 12 inches. With these, I was able to use my Canon remote, which has a 2.5mm plug.
Functions of the remote which worked: Record stop/start, Display, Zoom, both variable and stepped modes. In variable mode, some of the end-to-end zoom times I got were 5, 6, 11, 13, 16, 18. There are 16 selectable zoom speeds on the dial and here's how those worked: 1-2 = 21 sec, 3-4 = 15 sec, 5-6 = 11 sec, 7-8 = 8 sec, 9-10= 5.5 sec, 11-16 = 5 sec.

Functions that did not work: Magnify, AE Shift, Iris, Manual A/F switch, Push to Focus, manual focus adjustment dial, Standby, Peaking.

I also got a Sony remote, model RM-AV2. It's very small. The zoom lever has two speeds as far as I can tell. In fact, the zoom lever is much smaller than the one on the camera. It has a D-shaped plug, so I can use it with just the VMC-AVM1 adapter cable. You can turn the power off the camera with this remote, start/stop recording, zoom and also a photo button which reacts the same as the one on the camera.

Really liking this 4K for $2K camera.

Mark
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Old May 19th, 2014, 02:56 AM   #1271
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

@Ken -

One of the travails of my "monitor" is that the Intel graphics likes to switch to "29p/Hz" (no doubt as a flicker reduction measure) under certain conditions.... and the monitor is adamant about 30p/Hz, so it will begin to flash on and off randomly while trying to sync... took a while to sort THAT one out, it's really fun trying to return to 30 while the screen randomly flashes on and off! Seems to be a bug in the Intel driver when the computer goes into and comes out of sleep mode... messy, but now I let the TV turn off, wake the computer, then turn the monitor back on, and let it reacquire the monitor, somehow that keeps the correct 30p...

"Tales From the Bleeding Edge"

@Noa -

I know you've struggled with the RX10 zoom, I'll try to do some comparisons, but the AX100 is also pretty slow, but can be "crashed" - it has a very delicate zoom that almost feels like it has multiple speeds, got to play with it a bit today. Was meaning to take the RX10 out to compare, but didn't get to it.

Low light offhand looks as good or better when in low lux mode on the AX100, interestingly 30p seems cleaner, than the 1080 60p from what I see on the LCD.

Perhaps it's because I like to shoot stills, the RX10 still feels more natural to me, the AX100 is noticeably bigger. I've got to see if I can repro those micro vibrations - haven't noticed it specifically, but the wind around here blows a lot, and I sort of expect vibration from that!




I shot a few short clips today to test motion, haven't had the chance to download them and "process", but one thing I noticed immediately - if you pan using the VF, there's a LOT of stutter evident, you can definitely "see" the 30p. I DIDN'T see it on the LCD... so the "viewing device" seems to make a difference! Switched back and forth between 4K/30p and 1080/60p, the VF stutter disappeared. Not a deal killer, it actually forced me to maintain proper slow moves, but it'd give one a headache quick if you wave it like you just don't care!

Also discovered that if you shoot in different modes, you also have to play clips back with the camera in those modes... a tad inconvenient! At first I couldn't figure out where my clips went!

I'm hoping the "worst case" clips (of a series of small flags on a rope in our typical "stiff breeze") that I shot to test motion will answer my questions on 30p... if I find anything useful I'll try to share. Thus far, I do feel that fast motion and 30p may not be a super happy mix... but again not a deal killer, as I don't always shoot high motion.

General impression was that the AX100 feels quite good to shoot with, isn't overly heavy, and what I could see on the LCD looked very good. Next step, importing, experimenting with editing options, and seeing how it displays on the new computer!
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Old May 19th, 2014, 05:28 AM   #1272
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Dave did you try a good Lanc remote. My Manfrotto remote will get a nice smooth zoom from my CX700 for example that is impossible to achieve with the on camera zoom controller. The NX30U is better but the zoom remote is still a lot better. I would find it strange if the AX100 did not have variable zoom like all the other Sony's.

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Old May 19th, 2014, 07:55 AM   #1273
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst View Post
@Ken -

One of the travails of my "monitor" is that the Intel graphics likes to switch to "29p/Hz" (no doubt as a flicker reduction measure) under certain conditions.... and the monitor is adamant about 30p/Hz, so it will begin to flash on and off randomly while trying to sync... took a while to sort THAT one out, it's really fun trying to return to 30 while the screen randomly flashes on and off! Seems to be a bug in the Intel driver when the computer goes into and comes out of sleep mode... messy, but now I let the TV turn off, wake the computer, then turn the monitor back on, and let it reacquire the monitor, somehow that keeps the correct 30p...

"Tales From the Bleeding Edge"
Yes, 'trailblazers' we are. ;)

Interestingly, I too have had an occasional switch to 29hz on the onboard Intel graphics. However unlike your scenario, it goes unnoticed since my Samsung monitor seems to be OK with 29hz too and I don't get that flashing. I change it back to 30hz when, for whatever reason, I'm in the graphics section, but I don't see a difference.
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Old May 19th, 2014, 12:38 PM   #1274
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Ron -

I've got the RMAV2, two speed Sony remote, works fine. haven't had the chance to try to dig up any other old 2.5mm ones, I think there's a variable speed cheap-o buried in the equipment closet somewhere. The rocker is actually not bad, but takes a gentle touch - still feels "slow" compared to say the PJ760, but overall it's good.

Ken -
Yes, there's a driver issue with 30p... it shouldn't change from what you set (30p) to 29p just because it feels like it - I noticed the Samsung keeps going from 60 to 59 as well... but it isn't as picky about the sync signal. See below....


Adriano -

If it makes you feel "better", I played back the clips I shot yesterday with Sony's "play memories home" - which has sometimes been problematic in the past for video for me... results were "interesting" - on the Seiki, as I turned up sharpness, the video became rougher, and yes, the grass flickered like a cheap neon sign, among other bad effects.... 0 sharpness still looked very sharp and crisp, with NO flicker, and frankly as eye poppingly GOOD as you could ask for!! Sharpness will now be left on 0! SO, we have ONE element reproduced, on a "cheap" 4K TV being used as a monitor - I think adding any sharpness to an already sharp picture is BAD? Your old TV may be ruining the AX100 output...

30P is really 30 super sharp STILLS per second, every pause showed a freeze frame of the scene, with no visible blurring I could notice (recall our working theory about what might cause certain "motion artifacts"). Looked great, reasonably smooth, with a little bit of stutter with fast motion, probably because of the above. Strangely, 60p clips showed some motion blur when paused... hmmm. 1080 clips are definitely softer looking in comparison to the 4K. Tolerable, but a bit hard to accept after looking at the 4K... tradeoff of motion smoothness for sharpness... hmmm...

Here's where it gets "interesting" - moving the window over to the 1080 Samsung.... 30p exhibited much more "jerky" motion, pretty much as I observed in the AX100 viewfinder... 1080 clips looked smoother. 4K still looked sharper.


SO, to "sort of" back up Steve & Adriano (observations, but NOT "conclusions") - viewing experience may vary substantially - super sharp video may create issues, and refresh rates are probably more touchy in system setup. I may try playback direct via HDMI to see if results are the same... but it does not appear to be simple "plug and play". Keeping in mind this was close to "native", using Sony's viewer on unedited clips straight out of the camera....

RS is definitely noticeable, this is probably not a good skater/extreme sports/fast action tracking camera...

BUT, overall, this camera is incredibly sharp and crisp, and for most "normal" situations, it should produce the best video one could ask for!! May take a bit of effort to get the best final results in editing, but WELL worth the effort, IMO!

Based on preliminary casual testing, I'm re-thinking how often I would elect to switch to the high bitrate 1080/60p, and still need to drop 4K into Vegas to experiment with pan/scan/crop to 1080. More experimenting ahead, but overall very impressed, warts and all!!
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Old May 19th, 2014, 02:18 PM   #1275
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
The AX100 records at 29.97fps and unbeknownst to me, the project had mistakenly been set up as 30fps. Pretty close, shouldn't cause much of an issue? Nope, big issue.

Once I correctly set the project to 29.97 and the export to the same frame rate, the motion became razor sharp as it was in the other two editing programs. What a relief! So here I was condemning Edius, when in fact it was my bush league error that caused it.
Do you think also my PAL AX100 records 29.97fps. I have PAL system and on my manual I don't see that number of fps.
If you use Edius can you tell me what do I have to modify on my presets?
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ttings%202.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ning/1%20a.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...20Settings.jpg
May be are they not good presets?
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Last edited by Adriano Moroni; May 19th, 2014 at 04:43 PM.
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