Sony FDR-AX100

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Shaun Roemich

YAWN. Seriously Steve? In this day and age we are STILL pronouncing things "dead" or "out"?

I'll need to convey that tidbit to my clients as I prepare for my best ever (based on current receivables and projected work) year of video production.

Whose talking about making money? Trains made lots of money even during the first decades of air travel. I'm talking about what people are interested in reading about. What they will buy this year or next. What equipment they will stop using like analog when digital was released. What will be big at NAB.

RAW cameras can't even be called video cameras because they don't record video. So your future cameras will never create video nor will you edit video. In the near future you will not be doing video production. The word video will go the way of the 8-track and the 45 record. You'll need to learn a whole set of new skills -- those that come from digital cinema. Yes -- video is a deadman walking.

What publications do you read every month? What newsletters do you read everyday or every week?

Even if they use the word "video" in their title as does DV, I can tell you the content majority is Hollywood productions, Indie productions (both of which are shot at 24p), cameras (Canon DSLR, Pana DSLR, Red, Blackmagic, Digital Bolex, KineRaw, Arri, Sony F3 and up (most of which are RAW and many use log), software (CinemaDNG and Resolve), and, the newest topic "grading" which is definitely not our old friend CC.

Here's a list of this month's DV features:

1) Hands On, Handheld: Camera Moves With Freefly Systems' MoVI M10
MoVI is a revolutionary camera stabilizing system optimized for compact, “squarish” digital cine-style cameras.


2) High Performance, Even Higher Resolution: Blackmagic's Production Camera Points the Way to 4K


3) 2014 NAB Show Preview: First Look at the Trends, Tools and Technologies
ARRI Amira and 4K’s second year at the NAB Show. If trends hold true, we will see many companies touting it as a mainstream production and postproduction methodology.


4) The Beauty of 'Belle': Ben Smithard, BSC Finds Romance With Sony’s F65
Ben Smithard was on his way to producers offices to pitch the Panavision Genesis camera when he noticed a Sony F65 at the Pinewood Studios rental facility.


5) Spotlight: Affonso Gonçalves, Editor, 'Only Lovers Left Alive'
Shot on 35mm film.


6) 'In No Great Hurry': Documenting the Work and Wisdom of Photographer Saul Leiter
Leach shot the film in 16:9 aspect using a Canon EOS 5D Mark III.


7) 'Live from Space': NASA and Nat Geo Air Live Special That’s Out of This World
National Geographic Channel, Arrow Media and NASA are teaming up for Live from Space


8) Non-Stop Camera Movement on 'Need for Speed': How Cinematographer Shane Hurlbut Captured All the Action
The first studio feature film shot with Canon’s EOS C500 camera,

OK -- how many stories covered "video?" Knowing Oliver (#3) will cover mostly Cinema cameras and #7 is certainly not video in the sense of the products we use.

So an entire issue of Digital Video magazine -- and this is true month after month and has been true for many years -- doesn't have a feature on "video." Plus their other publications are "2-pop" and "Digital Cinematography" and "millimeter." Obviously none of these cover video.

Broadcast Engineering which did focus on video died last fall. Video Systems died years ago. That leaves Videomaker which is focused on the consumer newbie.

Editors have no interest stories on compressed format cameras -- although I did last year do a review of a Panasonic AVC- Intra camcorder. Can't even remember the number. They aren't interested because they know there is no interest by the public in reading about what are becoming legacy formats. How many times can someone read about MPEG-2 or even H.264.

Moreover, companies know they will continue to sell AVCHD/NXCAM in huge quantities without having to pay for marketing -- they want to place ads for their new products.

I know what's on my list of "stories to do" for DV. Nothing "lower quality" than 4K and ProRes. Ideally stories on RAW, LOG, Grading, CinemaDNG, and HVEC.

I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, but this NAB will be the point at which both RAW and 4K start to become big sellers. IMO the AX100 will change our world as much as did the VX1000. And, the BM and Digital Bolex cameras will do the same. Together, video equipment will be seen in the same light we looked at Beta SP. Tons of people still using it and DEFENDING IT, while making plans to go to digital ASAP. This 4K/RAW/ProRes revolution will happen in less than 3-years because 8K is coming in 5-years.

PS: I love the 60p look and I hate what people do when they grade. Personally, I agree with all of you. But, I can't make a living trying to go someplace the industry doesn't want to go.

The best quality folks have seen or will see is at the theater. That's 24fps. The majority of shipping 1080p and 2160p products (DSLR, etc.) have 30p as their top rate. Yes, cameras will get 60p and 120p, but it will be for SLO-MO. Despite OUR preference for 60p, I don't see the industry having any incentive to move from 24fps -- which is the gold standard for quality the world over -- to use their bandwidth for 60p while at the same time moving to 4K. That's over 8X more data!

[Dale McClelland]

>>Oh...just to clarify. The AX100 WILL output clean 1080 over HDMI while recording 4k! So, yes, you CAN monitor and record 1080 and still shoot 4K simultaneously! I like my live scopes. (Thanks Sony!)

Cliff, I'm confused now (not surprising) about being able to use an external monitor while recording 4k. Ken had posted that his understanding was that no signal went out to HDMI while recording 4k. Then I found apparent confirmation of that in the .pdf manual, which says:

"While recording XAVC S 4K movies, you cannot output movies to an external monitor via an HDMI/video connection. Only the on-screen display is output (models with the 4K functionality)."

Are you saying you have actually seen it output to an external monitor via HDMI during 4K recording? If so, that is very good news because this capability is important to me. (I do see now in some recent posts that an alternative is to use wi-fi and the Sony app to monitor and control the camera with a tablet/phone while shooting 4k. That's a good alternative.)

[Dave Blackhurst]

Referencing the "Hello Kitty" video, while there was definite motion blur, somehow it didn't appear objectionable, and blur from fast motion rather than stutter seems preferable, and natural enough.

The rest of the frame is of course nice and sharp, and probably raises expectations even more, but 30p and the "low" bitrate seems to be "working" fairly well overall - seems like Sony is arranging the 1's and 0's rather artfully? I'm in the 60p "camp", but if 30p can look this good, it's hard to argue too much... I've been plenty happy with the RX10 and RX100M2 for video use, it's actually surprising to see the bar raised so far so quickly - good times!

@Ken - I pulled up some of my RX10 video alongside the "Hello Kitty" video... I see what you mean... hmmm, RX10/100M2 still look pretty good, not much to quibble with, but 4K changes the expectation, even on "HD" screens! I think they will still intercut OK, with a little creativity, but now more than ever I'm wishing Sony had enabled 4K in the RX10...

[Cliff Totten]

Originally Posted by Dale McClelland

>>Oh...just to clarify. The AX100 WILL output clean 1080 over HDMI while recording 4k! So, yes, you CAN monitor and record 1080 and still shoot 4K simultaneously! I like my live scopes. (Thanks Sony!)

Cliff, I'm confused now (not surprising) about being able to use an external monitor while recording 4k. Ken had posted that his understanding was that no signal went out to HDMI while recording 4k. Then I found apparent confirmation of that in the .pdf manual, which says:

"While recording XAVC S 4K movies, you cannot output movies to an external monitor via an HDMI/video connection. Only the on-screen display is output (models with the 4K functionality)."

Are you saying you have actually seen it output to an external monitor via HDMI during 4K recording? If so, that is very good news because this capability is important to me. (I do see now in some recent posts that an alternative is to use wi-fi and the Sony app to monitor and control the camera with a tablet/phone while shooting 4k. That's a good alternative.)

I need to correct this. I made a HUGE mistake about this. Here is the evil truth:

When the AX100 is set for 4K, it's HDMI port outputs clean 1080 nicely. However, when you hit the "record" button, the camera actually SHUTS OF THE PORT!!!! So, you can watch what you want live on the HDMI, just don't hit the record button!

This one is dirty. I mean, what was Sony thinking? They show you clean 1080 right up until you start the recording and then suddenly pull it back??? Maybe it's a joke programmed by a rouge firmware engineer that Sony will repair on a future firmware release. Maybe Sony managers and testers missed this? Could this be just a simple "bug" or unintended "glitch" or one line of mistaken code?

I have seen dirty crippling tricks in my years but THIS one ranks up at the top. I love this camera so far but this petty stunt is a wonderful way to unnecessarily aggravate their precious customers.

It's not even a hidden, masked or covered cripple, it's a down right slap in the customer's face.

Ouch....that one stings and will leave a mark.

CT

[Buba Kastorski]

Lucky owners of AX100, congratulations!
can anyone please post couple native files, low compression, day\low light?
thx!

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

Will they actually see a difference from shooting at 1920x1080 XAVC-S that could be at 60P for smoother motion ? Does the FDR-AX100 actually do frame interpolation for the HDMI output to 1920x1080. Would be interesting to know as Sony certainly has the technology.

Ron Evans

Based on what I've seen Ron, no. When I hook my AX100 to my 1080p plasma without frame interpolation engaged on the display, rapid motion lacks the smoothness of a 60p recording. However the smoothness is there when I engage the display's interpolation.

So logically it would seem that if the AX100 was doing the interpolation in-camera, it would not be necessary to do it at the display.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

Just got my AX100 this afternoon. Im sceptical of 4k at only 60Mbp/s. Time to torture test the motion handling and low light resolution in the shodows. Lets see if can hold up without blocking and mudding up the blacks.

CT

Cliff, please tell me you're not going to be wildly waving the camera looking for RS and motion artifacts. Please. :)

BTW, I find the low light of the AX100 very close to that of the RX10.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

@Ken - I pulled up some of my RX10 video alongside the "Hello Kitty" video... I see what you mean... hmmm, RX10/100M2 still look pretty good, not much to quibble with, but 4K changes the expectation, even on "HD" screens! I think they will still intercut OK, with a little creativity, but now more than ever I'm wishing Sony had enabled 4K in the RX10...

Dave, it's kind of painful to see our beloved equipment outdated so quickly. I'm hoping I can at least get a few weeks out of the AX100! :)

But you're right, I see no reason you won't be able to intercut RX10 & AX100 footage with a little bit of attention to detail (pun intended). ;)

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

IThis one is dirty. I mean, what was Sony thinking? They show you clean 1080 right up until you start the recording and then suddenly pull it back??? Maybe it's a joke programmed by a rouge firmware engineer that Sony will repair on a future firmware release. Maybe Sony managers and testers missed this? Could this be just a simple "bug" or unintended "glitch" or one line of mistaken code?

CT

Nah, I don't think so Cliff. I think there is only so much processing power that's available at this stage and at this size and price. The AX100 is probably flexing all its muscle to get that 4K information on to the media and there simply isn't enough left over to simultaneously output clean 4K or 1080p. I bet if they did it would cause glitches in the actual recording. I'll take a clean recording and use the wifi workaround in the interim if I needed that simultaneous monitoring.

I just don't think this is any kind of conspiracy or bug.

[Cliff Totten]

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

Cliff, please tell me you're not going to be wildly waving the camera looking for RS and motion artifacts. Please. :)

BTW, I find the low light of the AX100 very close to that of the RX10.

Nah,..no wild waving. I'll put it on a tripod, get in front of the shot and move around fairly quickly. Like a singer or guitar player in a rock band or maybe as much as a dancer would on stage.

I shoot allot of indoor stage stuff with allot of dark backgrounds. I'm curious to see how the compression affects the shadows. Stressed out compression can block up quickly in the blacks and darker details first.

So far, I'm surprised it holds up as good as it does.

As far as Jell-O rolling shutter, 24p shows up allot more than 30p. (still testing)

I dont care about crazy camera waving. I'm more interested in real world shooting on a tripod and steady slow panning handheld.

This HDMI cripple/ shut off stunt has me fuming!

CT

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Buba Kastorski

Lucky owners of AX100, congratulations!
can anyone please post couple native files, low compression, day\low light?
thx!

Buba, here's the very first clip I shot out of the box, in a rush. You can download the native clip if you're a Vimeo member. The gentleman in the video is Robert Zahn of Value Electronics where I bought the AX100. A super guy BTW or shares our enthusiasm for video.

Robert was standing under the store's skylight as the sun was moving in and out of clouds. So the contrast was as severe as it gets. No manual settings were engaged.

C0001 on Vimeo

[Peter Siamidis]

Hey guys I just got mine and have been playing with it. I notice that in full auto mode the shutter defaults to 1/60th, but since it records at 30fps in 4k mode wouldn't it be better to manually set that to 1/30th shutter speed when recording 4k? I know that violates the 180 degree shutter rule, but keeping the shutter open a bit longer seems to help it a good amount in low light situations. So for example I'm filming down a hallway and the camera says 18db of gain with 1/60th shutter, but when I switch to 1/30th shutter the gain drops to 12db since it has more time to soak in light. In theory that should help reduce the 30fps judder a bit as well. What do you guys think? Or is this a pure preference thing as some maybe think 1/30th shutter would smear the image too much during movement?

[Steve Mullen]

If I remember there is a low light mode which drops the shutter-speed to 1/30th. Did you get a complete manual with yours?

[Peter Siamidis]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

If I remember there is a low light mode which drops the shutter-speed to 1/30th. Did you get a complete manual with yours?

Yeah it's the low lux setting which drops to 1/30th shutter when there isn't enough light. I'm just curious why I wouldn't always use that in 4k mode given that it records 30fps in 4k mode anyways, and given that 1/30th shutter results in a cleaner image with less noise due to less artificial gain being applied compared to the default 1/60th shutter in full auto. It won't compare with a real 60fps mode for smoothness, but with the shutter basically being open all the time (compared to half the time at 1/60th setting) means it should also result in smoother motion no?

Oh yeah I'm also actually surprised at the size of the camera, it's actually quite large! I'm used to my NX30 which is tiny in comparison. So far I like it enough that my NX30 will be hitting ebay tomorrow.

[Vaughan Wood]

Are you there Chris?

As this camera is now released, isn't it time for it to get it's own forum?

This thread is getting a bit ponderous and it's hard to follow everyone's different discussions!!

Cheers,

Vaughan