X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
Anyone know yet what Sony is going to implememt with the X70's 4K firmware update?
Will it be UHD or full 4K? Will it be the consumer 60mbp/s (like the AX100) or will it be a more Pro 100mbp/s 60mbp/s on the AX100 is "OK" but if you try to grade it, it falls apart pretty fast. I'm hoping because this is an "XDCAM",..it "should" have at least 8bit 4:2:0 UHD at 100mbp/s long GOP. Anybody know? How many are planning to pay for this upgrade? CT |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
One of my bigger concerns is that Sony hasn't mentioned price or features for the firmware upgrade. I don't doubt they're not sure what the can implement otherwise there'd be no reason not to disseminate that information. I'm a bit gun shy given how the FS700 4k upgrade was handled.
I'd really want XAVC-L 4:2:2 10 bit for 4k and to record it "internally" (with SDXC card). |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
4:2:2 10bit?
I strongly suspect that Sony would be way too terrified to add that much to the X70. Im sure they would feel that if they did that, they would lose a ton of money from lost sales on their higher future models. Im sure they are 4:2:0 8bit on this. The only mystery is, will it be the rock bottom 60mbps or 100mbps. 100mbps is a huge leap over 60mbps in the CODECs durability. I called Sony in Teaneck. They told me over the phone that they "suspect" its only 60mbps but were not at all sure. 60mbps is a "Handycam" bitrate and should not be an "XDCAM" bitrate. |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
Interestingly enough....while Sony allows its cheaper 4k/UHD products to have 60mbps, Lumix/Panasonic gladly gives its consumer products 100mbps!
The GH4, The FZ bridge camera and even their new pocket camera all shoot 4k to SDXC cards at 100mbps. Sony seems to guard 100mbps carefully and differs to 60mbps for all its consumer cameras. Let's see what Sony does with it's new RX20. I bet we are looking at Sony holding fast to 60mbps aagain and NOT matching Panasonic's competing model. |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
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Ron Evans |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
Sony PXW-70X already supports XAVC-L 4:2:2 10 bit.
https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/micro-...roduct-PXWX70/ The new camcorder has the ability to record High Definition in XAVC Long GOP, enabling 422 10-bit sampling at 50 Mbps |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
Firmware upgrade for the PXW-Z100 looks like one is already available. Not sure if it's the one you refer to.
https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/micro-...eRelease.shtml Manual http://di.update.sony.net/HXR/CylafE...100_manual.pdf Does only mention 4:2:0 8 bit but as "output" unclear whether this is only an update relative to HDMI Formats and Limitations of Outputs This software update makes the camcorder compatible with the HDMI 4K/59.94P (50P) transmission system and enables 4K image quality playback on other manufacturers’ televisions compatible with this transmission system. YCbCr 4:2:0/8 bit |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
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Ron Evans |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
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Ron Evans |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
In order to extend the life-cycle of a product, or compete with new items from the competition, it seems that manufacturers have discovered ways to make little improvements but perhaps without changing anything physical about the unit, like:
Add Pre Record or Retro cache, or extend the time Add a Time lapse option Add another/new recording format Add two-channel recording capability Improve color management These are things that can be improved upon with updates to the firmware Later in the product life-cycle, the MSRP gets lowered and then the last step is to sweeten the pot by throwing in some overpriced accessories. If the design gurus can build in some features, say in the circuit boards, that can be accessed with firmware updates then this can make it easier for the marketing department later on to add new selling features. Buying a camera is almost like playing poker - if it's not needed right away then wait a couple months until the price softens a bit. If all the new features (4K?) aren't really needed then pick up an older model but without all the bells and whistles, where all the positives and negatives are known, and the price has come down significantly. NAB is, what, six months off? So there will be more new gear. It's not a three-ring camera so on that level it can't really compete with the truly pro models. Make a dent? Sure, but how much? What about a dent in the competition's market share? Hold out on the upgrades and the competition can take the wind out of your sails. Guess this why the CEOs get paid all those big bucks. This will be interesting to watch. |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
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Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
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Ron Evans |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
Spoke to a couple of people from Sony at PhotoPlusExpo.
The X70 will have the same UHD (4K) codec as the AX100. They gave me a delivery date range (subject to change) of between March and May 2015. |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
The next time someone is talking to Sony and can get some "unofficial" details, I'd love to know if the X70 upgrade to 4K will also add the 120fps of the AX100...
I don't even care if it's 720p. |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
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Ron Evans |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
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One more thought is that while I try to understand why certain design decisions were made, I can only imagine that these companies have the marketing team on one side and the very capable engineers on the other side and they do not see things the same way. So it's the "bean counters" vs. "eggheads" if you will. Some give and take going on, which explains the odd-ball stuff we see in some designs. Now, this brings to mind the recent newspaper ad ran by Canon to announce their new See Impossible campaign. Reading the ad, I thought this has a tone of some kind of "payback" to all the doubters and naysayers. Like Canon's thin-skinned marketing dept. read every negative comment in the blogosphere and took it personal and now it's an ad that has a "Revenge of the Nerds" ring to it. I can't believe that ad campaign got top approval. Do they not see themselves as a large corporation, well respected for all the fine cameras and lenses they've produced? Their ad should reflect a more respectable image. Just a casual observation. Mark |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
german video-magazine ... big, but imho a bit "sony friendly"
have publicise some details about the 4K update here in native german language => Sony PXW-X70: 4K-Update - die Details here a bit "gibberish" translated per google to english language => https://translate.google.at/translat...-text=&act=url to 30p limited HDMI out ...yes, but is only 4:2:0 about internal recording is imho not clear written 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 respectively 8 bit or 10 bit |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
Looks to be the same as the PXW-Z100 update XAVC-L, 420 8bit MXF as expected but limited to 24/25 30P. The Z100 has the range from the FDR-AX1 which includes 50/60P up to 150Mbps. Didn't reference the bit rate but I expect its 60Mbps just like the AX100 though it may increase to 100Mbps which is an option on the FDR-AX1 for 30P.
Ron Evans |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
With it being a "Pro" camera, Sony had to do better than give it their "consumer" XAVC-S codec. What bit rate can SDXC handle? I'd guess this camera will be limited to 60Mbps for in-camera recording, possibly higher bit rates with external recorder. XQD media used in FDR-AX1 can do 1Gbps.
http://www.sony.ru/res/attachment/fi...7492960962.pdf Mark |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
I am still doubtful that there is any difference between XAVC-L and XAVC-S when 420 8bit 3840x2160 is concerned other than one is mp4 and the other MXF. As I see it XAVC-S has a frame size limit and bit rate limit that XAVC does not have. But is there any difference at the same frame size and bit rate ? It would be nice to know .
Ron Evans |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
I see Panasonic HC-X1000 and GH4 are using the SDXC cards for their 200Mbps bit rate video, so at least that much is possible in-camera. Fun to speculate. I don't think they'll do it though, price is too low overall and they would have announced the specs earlier if it were more impressive.
Edit: Why did Sony use XQD in the FDR-AX1 if they are only going up to 150Mbps? Mark |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
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Ron Evans |
Re: X70's 4K (UHD) Capabilities?
As somebody contemplating moving to an X70, I'll admit: I'd rather have 4K60 (with necessary modest increase in bitrate over the AX100) than any other framerate/bitrate/chroma sample/bitness combination. The 4:2:2 isn't a huge deal for me, personally. I have held a friend's X70, however, and I hugely prefer its body over the AX100. The zoom rocker is approximately 1,000,000x better than the AX100's. And I do want the XLR.
I tend to shoot primarily in available light, so 10-bit sampling doesn't really do anything for me either; those extra bits would just be noise most of the time, and therefore no more than a burden to the codec. Give me... 80-100Mbit/s 4:2:0 8-bit 4K60 in this package. I'd like that. |
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