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Old May 27th, 2015, 03:01 PM   #16
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!

I think that for the price point, $2000 for the camera and $500 for the UHD upgrade, there are no complaints there. I feel that it's a good value.

I do think that 4:2:0, 8bit, long GOP is what the UHD upgrade should be. (10bit 4:2:0 UHD internal recording is certainly going too far) However, I STRONGLY believe that you can't do UHD properly at 60Mbp/s...that's is ridiculously low and the rest of the industry agrees with this. Sony answered the industry and brought the AX100 the minimal level that every other 4K camera is set at.

It just baffles me that Sony leaving this PXW-X70 XDCAM to hang in the wind all by itself with a "SUB-CONSUMER" level UHD bitrate.

The Z100? Well, it's a nice form factor but for me, I don't like the tiny,high megapixel "cell phone" image sensor that it has.

If Sony is worried about profitability, I'd certainly consider a second upgrade charge for 100Mbp/s if it was necessary.
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Old May 27th, 2015, 03:55 PM   #17
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!

It would be rather surprising if they failed to match the existing FW upgraded AX100, but often times Sony releases old or inaccurate information, so maybe that's where the problem lies?

I think the manufacturers are still trying to sort out what 4K "looks like" in the marketplace, and what the expectations will be.
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Old May 27th, 2015, 04:33 PM   #18
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!

The AX1 sensor is used in a lot of Sony cameras. It is cropped to about 1/3" in the AX1 so is comparable to a lot of the smaller Sony's sensor sizes. I have both the AX1 and the AX100 and in good light shooting at 100Mbps UHD 30P on both there is little difference . But of course the AX1 can do 60P at 150Mbps which is what I want, and the difference in low light is not dramatic as the AX1 wide open goes to F1.6 compared to the AX100 at F2.8 almost makes up for the sensor size. Both are slower than my NX5U by quite a margin they just have less noise in the image with newer sensors and electronics. The NX30U that I also have I think is a little faster than either too. So having a large sensor is not a complete answer unless the lens is also good and fast. My hope is that Sony make a UHD version of the EA50 so that the large choice of e mount lenses would be available. The body of the EA50 is also big enough for XQD cards and fan !!!

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Old May 29th, 2015, 09:48 AM   #19
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!

It's funny, Sony has a couple of "low end" UHD models that people can choose from and they also have the high end market very well covered with the FS7, F5 and F55.

Sony has stated that FS7 sales were so strong that they significantly increased production of the model. As we know, the higher the model the more the profit margin.

There are very little "mid level" $5,000 or so 4K market choices. You either need to come in on a "low" 4K model or save your money up for an FS7. I think right now, Sony is holding off on the mid-level market and forcing as many people as possible to move "up" into a good high profit margin FS7.

It seems Sony doesn't want to lose the potential sale of even one FS7 to any "mid level" model today. After all, Canon and Panasonc are doing the same thing right now. It does seem like the mid-level market will start to develop be the end of this year though. Panasonic is releasing a MFT ENG-style camera in Q4 for around that magic $5,000 price point. So,...this might begin to for Sony's hand and adding more models into the price point. (i.e. Sony "FS1"...a crippled, 8bit, 4:2:0 version of the FS7 body.)

Could this be the reason why the PXW-X70 is only being given 60Mbp/s? Is it odd marketing strategy?

Who knows?
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Old May 29th, 2015, 10:17 AM   #20
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!

Yes, Canon and Sony are leaving the middle ground wide open at the moment and that's where JVC with the LS300 and (I think especially) Panasonic with the DVX200 will gain significant sales in the next 12 months.

I was all set to buy either a "cheap" 4K camera (initially I thought the X70, then I leaned towards the JVC HM200) and "dabble with 4K" - or go the whole hog and buy a C300MkII…. but more and more I'm getting close to pre-ordering the DVX200 as it meets so many of my needs for the type of shooting I do. I also feel uncomfortable about paying the high price tag of the C300MkII when it still has a few compromises from my perspective and the 4K camera landscape is changing so very fast.

Although we have yet to see images from it, the DVX200 is likely to offer a decent (enough) step into 4K without breaking the bank. Still wish it did 150Mbps in 4K though, not 100Mbps, although I like the idea of 200Mbps for HD, when needed. 120 fps in HD could be useful for some slomo effects too. The X70 is now off my list with its lowly 60Mbps 4K codec limit.
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Old May 29th, 2015, 11:01 AM   #21
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!

Well said Andy. Very good points that you have there, indeed.

I have only had my PXW-X70, professional market "XDCAM" camcorder for a week now. I'm still within my 30 day return period.

If, in the next three weeks, it looks like Sony is going to keep this PXW-X70 professional market "XDCAM" camcorder at a 4K bit rate WELL BELOW the "consumer" market standard 4K bit rate...than yes, I must return it.

I really hope someone at Sony with any kind of decision making ability is listening and understands how silly it is to only add 60Mbp/s to this PXW-X70, professional market "XDCAM" camcorder.

After all Sony, is there any reason why ANY "XDCAM" professional market camcorder should have a codec that is LOWER than my grandmother's $900, 4K AX33 Handycam codec?

Maybe this all makes perfect sense and I'm the one who is actually wrong here.....
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Old May 29th, 2015, 11:40 AM   #22
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
...
Could this be the reason why the PXW-X70 is only being given 60Mbp/s? Is it odd marketing strategy?

Who knows?
I expect they are different design teams working off a base model. The X70 would need to have Long GOP 8bit 4:2:0 like the PXW-Z100 not the XAVC-S like the FDR-AX100 or the FDR-AX1 for example. It took the PXW-Z100 design team almost a year to provide what the FDR-AX1 had from the beginning in terms of Long GOP recording times. Using MXF Long GOP may be the cause of the problem for the X70 not just being able to use what the AX100 already has installed. Clearly for both these model types the base engineering is the same source. I still think the easiest way for Sony to hit the upcoming DVX200 price point would be a 4K variant of the EA50 with 18 to 105 lens or the new 28 to 135 lens. This would provide an interchangeable lens advantage over the DVX200 or just leave the stock lens on. The DVX200 would then have a zoom range advantage. Current EA50 is about $2600 so add $2000 for 4K and XQD card slots and you have something that would beat the competition. Limit functionality, only Long GOP for instance or stay with SDXC cards, even the FMU128 may be fast enough, so that it did not compete too much with the FS7 and Sony have a winner.
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Old May 29th, 2015, 03:40 PM   #23
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!

I get the feeling that the only "large sensor" 4K model that it wants in it's lineup today is the FS7. We know that above that is the F5/55 but if the FS7 is really selling as hot as they say it is, they might be paranoid about cannibalizing even $1 dollar of it's sales numbers.

By now, we should have seen a Handycam 4K "VG900" but I'm guessing that idea scares them too much right now. Maybe they are timing the market on a month to month basis?..lol

Rumors say that an A7000 APSC (super35 in video) could have internal 4K. The rumors also say that Sony could cripple it with a 15min video limit.

I think that a 4K EA50 locked down to 100Mbp/s, 8bit 4:2:0 would be a brilliant camera at $3500 - $4,000 but I cant see them risking that this year. If they did, Sony would prolly install a 24 megapixel sensor in it just to scare potential FS7 buyers away from it.

Once the middle class 4k log jam breaks, we will certainly see a big flood of new models from Canon, Panny and Sony all at once. Sony might no do anything until FS7 sales saturate and begin to decline.

Hell,...it's working. Even I'm tempted to save up for one, even though I don't need intraframe or 10 bit....only because Sony has nothing else waiting for me.

On the PXW-X70 professional market "XDCAM" camera with lower than consumer grade 60Mbp/s codec? I think the Canon XC-10 might be it's biggest competitor. Canon 1inch type sensor but slower lens....oh and it has 305Mbp/s intra with C-Log
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Old May 29th, 2015, 03:49 PM   #24
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!

While the promise of eventual 4K in the X70 is "interesting"... as a practical matter, anyone who got the AX100 is happily shooting away, with higher bitrate thanks to the FW upgrade... not sure why Sony is taking so long, and while I suspect they will go with a higher bitrate when they finally get the X70 FW update, I am glad I went with the camera that was fully cooked!

I know I'd like to see a FW update to the RX10, but I am happy with the camera for what it DOES do, whether it ever shoots 4K or not... the AX100 has been doing what I expect it to do... if FW comes out to "upgrade", that's great too, but if they are releasing "half cooked" products into the retail channel, I don't really know what to say!


There's more to the equation than bitrate and codecs, the sensor and lens in these cameras is in an entirely different class than "grandma's AX33". Image quality is night and day, having compared the cameras firsthand. All "4K" is not equal by any means. Even "HD" from my RX10's looks closer to 4k than the small chip cameras, when A/B'd into HDMI on a 4K screen.



Not saying you don't have a legitimate question - Sony should have the FW "cooked" by now, especially if they will be charging for it (AX100 and RX series FW has been free to download and install...). The specs for the update should be accurate AND competitive... but this IS Sony we are talking about, and sometimes they aren't the best at "customer service" OR communication (experience speaking). I've sought answers to questions, gotten answers that were completely wrong from Sony, and have found it better to rely on other users experience than Sony US "tech support"...
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Old May 29th, 2015, 09:49 PM   #25
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!

Honestly, I'm no particular fan of .MXF.

I would have actually been much happier if the X70 used the AX100's .mp4 wrapped container and used it's same file structure.

Everything understands h.264 inside .mp4.

MXF?...well that is hit or miss.

Sadly, not even Sony Vegas Pro 13 (current build 444) can play the X70's .mxf files! It's hard to believe but totally true!
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Old May 31st, 2015, 10:15 AM   #26
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Wilkinson View Post
Although we have yet to see images from it, the DVX200 is likely to offer a decent (enough) step into 4K without breaking the bank. Still wish it did 150Mbps in 4K though, not 100Mbps, although I like the idea of 200Mbps for HD, when needed. 120 fps in HD could be useful for some slomo effects too. The X70 is now off my list with its lowly 60Mbps 4K codec limit.
I need to edit the above information as I forgot that the specs on the DVX200 indicate that it WILL do 150Mbps in 4K mode... at 50p or 59.94p (MP4/MOV Long GOP with LPCM audio).

It's 'normal' 4K at 25p (or 29.97p or 23.98p) is at 100Mbps.

The HD at 200Mbps will be All-Intra, by the way.
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Old June 1st, 2015, 01:08 PM   #27
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!

I'm glad someone brought up the issue of noise. By all accounts 60Mbps is low for 4K, and I am not trying to bail out Sony here, but consider a different camera with potentially more noise than the X70, maybe now you NEED a higher bitrate codec to encode that noise without destroying the rest of the image? I suspect a cleaner source should compress more cleanly, even at a lower bitrate.
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Old June 1st, 2015, 03:12 PM   #28
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!

well? The X70 certainly can produce as much noise as any other camera at high gain levels.

60Mbp/s was not good enough for ANY 4K Canon, Panasonic, JVC or ANY other 4k Sony model. EVERYbody gave their 4k models 100Mbp/s or higher.

Now with this PXW-X70 professional "XDCAM" branded camera, Sony might have said: "Ehh...lets go WAY below the rest of the industry and hold it at 60Mbp/s". However. while they doing this they also made darn sure to get 100Mbp/s in the X70's baby brother, the consumer Handycam AX100. (because 60Mbp/s was just not good enough for this cheaper model)

Baffling. Shocking. Strange. Weird.

I cant find any logic in this decision.

Noise or no noise....60Mbp/s is WAY below even the lowest and cheapest consumer model on the planet.

This is not my "opinion"...this just an odd mathematical fact.

I'm not even asking or expecting Sony to give the PXW-X70 professional "XDCAM" camcorder at "professional" bit rate like 150Mbp/s, 8bit long GOP.

I'm only asking the PXW-X7- professional "XDCAM" camcorder to be given a BASIC CONSUMER-LEVEL codec bit rate of 100Mbp/s so that it "matches" all of the cheapest 4K consumer cameras in the world.

CT

Last edited by Cliff Totten; June 1st, 2015 at 03:49 PM.
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Old June 1st, 2015, 06:22 PM   #29
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!

I asked question to a Sony rep at an AbelCine regarding the 4K codec and he said something about heat related issues. I find that hard to believe given their consumer cameras size and 4K data rate.

Unless Sony does some PR claiming their 60mbps 4K codec is better than their consumer codec or their competitors higher bit rate codecs, they're going to lose credibility.
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Old June 1st, 2015, 07:33 PM   #30
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!

Since there haven't been any reports (at least any I've heard of) of AX100 and heat related issues, I'd say that's bunk...

There have been some reports of upcoming still cameras being delayed because of heat/4K issues, which wouldn't surprise me. Sony has hit this before where the smaller size bodies simply cannot dissipate the heat produced as the sensors and processors are "pushed" harder for more bits or more pixel resolution... physics has it's limits...

And on a completely different note, Sony had a debacle over the last couple days where they (or someone) posted ridiculously low prices on several higher end still cameras, once again proving that you can't always trust everything you see on the internet....and that Sony makes some whopper mistakes.

Until there is a final release FW, there's really no way of knowing what is going to (or not going to) be in it...

I was pleasantly surprised when AX100 and RX10 FW updates popped up to update features/capabilities, but I wouldn't buy an X70 with fingers crossed on a future paid upgrade....
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