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Pro and consumer versions including PXW-Z150, PXW-Z100, PXW-X70 / FDR-AX100


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Old August 22nd, 2016, 09:02 PM   #46
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Re: New Sony PXW-Z150

Nice job on this video Doug. As always, they are well spoken and are very clear, concise and to the point.

I had to laugh pretty loud too on your "If you have lost your mind running in automatic" comment. (no exact quote)

Not sure if you were actually trying to be funny or serious but it sure made me chuckle too.

Good job.

CT
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Old August 23rd, 2016, 09:04 PM   #47
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Re: New Sony PXW-Z150

Oh, I was being dead serious! The words "professional" and "automatic" never go together.
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Old August 23rd, 2016, 10:10 PM   #48
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Re: New Sony PXW-Z150

Ehh....although i generally agree with your statement, I don't exactly agree 100% of the time. Auto shutter will be an ugly thing but locking that with auto iris or auto focus at times can be very useful. Depends on lighting conditions and other factors, of course. If you know your camera well enough, you tend to say "yeah this is safe for AF" or "there is no way in hell I'd trust AF for this" I might use AF 20% of the time and I can say I have a track record of knowing how NOT to get burned by it.

Auto IRIS is also useful at times too provided you have +/- EV ready to compensate. Auto gain with a cap set is still yet another useful tool on occasion.

You don't have to "lose your mind" to use AUTO at times...isn't that a little "extreme"?

LMAO!

Here is a better funny statement I'll throw out:

Any "professional" would have to "lose their mind" to manually operate a "fly by wire" lens with no real calibrated markings!!

There....that's even better.

OR!....

"Fly by wire" lenses and "PROFESSIONAL" don't go together??? ;-)

CT

Last edited by Cliff Totten; August 23rd, 2016 at 10:40 PM.
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Old August 24th, 2016, 06:31 AM   #49
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Re: New Sony PXW-Z150

Well, if by making a bold statement I cause people stop and consider if using automatic (any function) is really necessary or not, I have done my job. Stop and think, that's all I ask. Some people might still go ahead and use auto anyway in some situations, but using automatic should not be automatic. There are a lot people who think they must use automatic or are scared to try manual settings. I want to encourage them to throw away the crutches and start running. I want them shout "I've been healed!" and never look back as they wrestle control away from the camera's evil clutches. Believe me, if I've manage to get through my whole career not using automatic for anything, then clearly it is within anyone's ability to do the same.
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Old August 24th, 2016, 07:38 AM   #50
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Re: New Sony PXW-Z150

I didn't find Doug's "lose your mind" offensive as I understood the point he was making by not letting a camera do everything automatically, being a professional also means using the right equipment for a job. Not sure if it is the case but if the Z150 would have a fly by wire focus system then you don't use the camera for controlled focuspulls but you use a camera that has a mechanical lens with hard stops. Some automatic aids like Canons dual pixel AF technology can be used however to help maintain focus in a better way in certain conditions then you could do manually, especially on moving subjects towards the camera and to say that this would not be professional is a bit silly ofcourse, unless you would prefer out of focus footage because you cannot keep up manually or because your fly by wire lens plays tricks on you and messes the focus up while you turn it. I would say in very specific situations certain auto functions could do the job better then you could it manually, it's up to you to choose when to use it to guarantee the best results, that's being a professional as well.
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Old August 24th, 2016, 07:49 AM   #51
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Re: New Sony PXW-Z150

I see your point Doug however there are some real advantages to automatic operation in lots of things. There was a time when formula 1 race cars were full manual until to get more performance computers took over. No way a driver can change gear as fast as a computer or manage power output clutch control and gear selection to stop wheels spin etc. This even true for motorcycles now, don't spin the wheel or raise the front end on takeoff but make it exiting for the user. So the driver becomes a controller of the computer not in full manual control. Same for flying commercial and certainly military aircraft. The camera designers spent lots of time, just like the F1 designers to squeeze that last drop of performance out of the electronics and lens especially of consumer cameras and although I agree with you that running manual is commendable and something to learn it may not give the best performance for most people. My wife shoots with me with a AX100 which I set up for her so that she only has to focus ( manual, but touch focus ) zoom and work the AE shift control watching the zebras. I have fixed white balance, shutter speed and gain limit. I am sure you are aware that in AE shift the Sony's can get gain and iris values that you cannot get manually on the consumer and prosumer models that I am sure were carefully chosen to optimize performance for the lens position. Much like the paddle wheel gear positions on a CVT car automatic that are fixed position on what is a continuous gear transmission.

Lastly professional to me means you get paid doesn't mean that person is good at it.

This is not a criticism of you Doug your training videos and examples are superb.

Ron Evans

Last edited by Ron Evans; August 24th, 2016 at 11:17 AM.
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Old August 24th, 2016, 10:11 AM   #52
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Re: New Sony PXW-Z150

Ok....let's get brutality honest with ourselves and the industry here.....

What is our ultimate goal? Perfect focus on the subjects we want, the depth of field we want and the exact exposure we want. Right? It's how we want our end product to look. "How" we get to that perfect end product is not that important....as long as you hit your marks! Full auto, manual or any combination of the two.

Now....it's true, running full manual is what we need more often than not to get there. But hey, sometimes auto settings CAN be a great tool too. Lemme tell you, the FS5's auto ND is pretty damn FUN!

Anyhoo....let's be honest. Automatic anything is looked down upon as being "amature". As PROs we see somebody using an auto setting and we asume they "don't know what they are doing". Or....we asume that person is too "dumb" about cameras to handle focus, iris or shutter speeds. We also think much more highly of ourselves because we DO understand all these things.

It's a funny stereotype that we ALL have in the industry. Admit it. It's true. Look in the mirror. You and I are guilty...all of us! Lol

I, myself?...I would never be caught DEAD in AF mode...ever! Not even if I was shooting test footage of my cat sleeping that was I going to delete in 5 minutes!!

Ok, the truth? Ok...if I looked around and saw that I was by myself and nobody was looking at me, maybe I'd run AF if I was shooting a 14mm wide landscape on a bright day at f.11 and a deep depth of field. Most AF will nail that perfectly without any trouble. Shhhhh...that's only if nobody was lookin'.

Doug is right to tell people to get off auto. I absolutely back him up on that. But buy saying "you have lost your mind" to run in auto?....thats still a very comedic statement. It's not "offensive" in any way...it's just a goofy and over the top way to say it!

CT
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Old August 24th, 2016, 10:42 AM   #53
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Re: New Sony PXW-Z150

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But buy saying "you have lost your mind" to run in auto?....thats still a very comedic statement.
He was referring to "all auto" and then I would agree, the more auto functionality you start to add, like auto focus, auto iris, autoshutter, auto nd and auto whitebalance the more can and will go wrong, if you shoot in a all auto setting meaning letting the camera handle everything, then you don't care about how the image looks, you just want to get the shot.
Take that auto nd from the fs5, what happens if you point the camera to a bright window indoors, will the auto nd kick in and expose for the window, meaning underexpose? If that would be the case I don't see the point of a auto nd because there is a high risk the camera will expose wrong. Canons dual pixel AF otoh I would gladly use under very specific situations where I know it will perform better then what I could achieve manually.
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Old August 24th, 2016, 03:14 PM   #54
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Re: New Sony PXW-Z150

Yeah, the FS5's Auto ND is a fun gimmic. I mean, I'm more about riding the wheel on it. Lock your gain. Lock your shutter at, let's say 180degrees, open way up on a fast prime to get a really thin DoF...then just ride that sick electronic ND to get the exposure you want. Letting that go to AUTO and riding the +/- EV could get the same effect.
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Old August 24th, 2016, 03:46 PM   #55
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Re: New Sony PXW-Z150

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Letting that go to AUTO and riding the +/- EV could get the same effect.
It won't, just try it and shoot indoors and pan from left to right towards a very bright source like a window, the camera will adjust instantly and you have to compensate using the EV, only if you don't want the exposure to change at all your shot is scr*wed. That happens when you let a camera decide what the exposure should be.
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Old August 24th, 2016, 08:04 PM   #56
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Re: New Sony PXW-Z150

Certainly. I'm just saying you can ride the "auto" logic with +/- EV control over the ND filter. Yes, it's dynamic and so is your response to it. You can certainly roll the density (electronically) as you get near the window and back when you get away.

Now.....a fun moral question for all of us:

You have a Sony FS5 with your grip wheel that spins for +/- EV. So you can manually ride +2 or -2 stops with your right index finger on the grip.

Your left hand is pulling manual focus.
Your shutter is manually locked.
Your ISO is manually locked
Your IRIS is AUTO but you are MANUALLY riding the +/- EV wheel with your right hand and carefully controlling the exposure you want. (IRIS is the only option the camera logic has left if ND is off)

Boom!....how do we critique this fictional cameraman and his abilities? Where does he belong in our industry and how do we judge his status among us?

1.) Is he running in "AUTO" or "MANUAL"?
2.) Is he considered a "professional" or not?
3.) Has he truly "lost his mind" for doing this?

My vote is that he is running a "quasi-manual" mode. Yes, his camera logic will adapt to his conditions and move that IRIS around. However, if he has the ability to force his will over the camera's exposure logic and manually choose the exposure he really wants. (within the provided +/-EV range)

Is he "professional" I dunno....I could be either in my book. If he makes great videos and makes lots of bank doing that, than he's a "pro"....right?

Has he "lost his mind"? C'mon...he may be "lazy" at worst but I doubt he's "crazy"...He's letting the camera get 90% of the way there while he "nudges" it the rest of the way there.

Sorry guys. I'm just being very light hearted about this. It does tickle me. ;-)

CT

Last edited by Cliff Totten; August 24th, 2016 at 11:03 PM.
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Old August 25th, 2016, 01:08 AM   #57
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Re: New Sony PXW-Z150

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Your IRIS is AUTO but you are MANUALLY riding the +/- EV wheel with your right hand and carefully controlling the exposure you want.
You are not carefully controlling anything, the only thing you will be doing is constantly battling your camera's choice what the exposure should be and that fight will be visible in your film and in my window example, something I have to deal with a lot when shooting indoors at weddings, will scr*w up your shots time and time again. The only way for me to have shots with consistent exposure at all times is when I do it manually.
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Old August 25th, 2016, 05:43 AM   #58
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Re: New Sony PXW-Z150

It sound like you are saying the your camera's auto logic is "always wrong". Yes, it easily could be "right" in a room with people waiting for a cake and "wrong" when the cake arises with candles on it. Every situation is different.

If you want "constant" exposure? For sure stay far away from and auto function. You "might" only benifit from using AUTO something if you "dont" want constant exposure. If you want "adapting" exposure.

If you are shooting something so chaoticly changing like...I dunno a night club with flashing strobe lights. You might be screwed either in full manual or partial auto.

Every scene is different. I'm saying full manual is your most accurate way to get exposure but it's not to say that AUTO something does not have a use either.

There are a million things that you can only shoot 100% manual. Just did a rock concert. All 5 cameras were 100% manual. I had my Shogun on mine cause I knew I'd need all my exposure and focus tools ready for full exposure "war".

That's totally different than shooting a slow changing birthday party inside a wealthy clients home.

Everything is different. There is no...."there is only ONE way to do everything and all the rest is wrong" in this industry.
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Old August 25th, 2016, 07:38 AM   #59
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Re: New Sony PXW-Z150

It depends on your intent for the video. Do you want it to look like a person sees in the situation ? Our eyes react very quickly. When I shoot theatre my camera is full manual, my wife is semi auto (manual spot focus, AE shift, locked white balance, shutter speed and limit on gain ), fixed full stage camera set up the same way. That way I can choose which is best for a particular scene change for example. With the latest camera the AX53 used as an unattended full stage ( set up like my wife's ) it will happily manage lights going to full black stage and back up to full lights with little overshoot even if the lights are really flashed on. Being honest I often use one of the other cameras as I am too slow to catch a very wide change. True that AE shift may make a dark scene a little lighter or bright a little darker but that is something our eyes do too and since the camera has a limited range it is better that the output can be seen rather than be exactly as presented.

As I said in previous post professional is someone who gets paid and amateur doesn't and to me has no bearing on their competence or quality of their product.

Ron Evans
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Old August 25th, 2016, 07:39 AM   #60
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Re: New Sony PXW-Z150

Thread moved with re-direct from Industry News to Sony 4K Ultra HD Handhelds.
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