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Old October 13th, 2017, 12:58 PM   #16
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Re: s-log and new Sony x90

Cleaner and sharper and such for regular WYSIWYG REC709 shooting. I have not ventured into S-LOG on the Z90 yet and HDR hold no interest for me at all at this time.
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Last edited by Doug Jensen; October 13th, 2017 at 04:04 PM.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 01:04 PM   #17
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Re: s-log and new Sony x90

Will be very interesting to see how the built in SLOG2 LUT's in FCPX work with these new features.


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Old October 13th, 2017, 01:34 PM   #18
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Re: s-log and new Sony x90

I strongly suspect that all three of these new cameras use the same RX10-III, RX10-IV, RX100-V and Z150
image sensor. Its the latest stacked RS BSI with super fast readout. Who knows if they changed the processing since the Z150. Maybe they made even further noise reduction improvements over the Z150?

This really begs the question; "Just how much can you squeeze out of a 1inch-type sensor"? Whatever that is, Sony seems to be using and processing every darn photon they can get!

Doug, if you can, try to measure the dynamic range you are seeing. (if you have charts)

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Old October 13th, 2017, 05:09 PM   #19
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Re: s-log and new Sony x90

Sorry, I don't have any DR charts. Just the normal Chroma duMonde charts and stuff like that.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 11:58 PM   #20
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Re: s-log and new Sony x90

:-D

How I made my own Dynamic Range Test Chart - www.similaar.com
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Old October 16th, 2017, 04:35 AM   #21
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Re: s-log and new Sony x90

Hey Paul, I appreciate the ingenuity it took to create your own chart but DR is not something I'm interested in measuring. The camera is whatever the camera is.

A DR chart might answer someones's questions about their camera's capabilities or help them make a purchase decision, but it won't help me create a PP or provide any usable information about the camera that I can't see on my regular WFM and monitors. If you told me the camera has 8 stops, 10, stops, or 20 stops of dynamic range it wouldn't make any difference to me at all in the operation of the camera. All that matters is squeezing as much performance out of the camera as I can with whatever limitations it has.
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Old November 23rd, 2017, 07:44 AM   #22
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Re: s-log and new Sony x90

Doug,
Now that vimeo supports hdr, have you changed your position on using it?
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Old November 23rd, 2017, 08:15 AM   #23
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Re: s-log and new Sony x90

I wonder how HDR would be viewable by a Vimeo viewer? My Samsung TV has not yet received the capability of viewing YouTube HDR, and just in the last few months got Netflix HDR capability added...my Macbook and my home PC's can't spit out HDR to my TV either.

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Old November 23rd, 2017, 02:54 PM   #24
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Re: s-log and new Sony x90

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Allen View Post
Doug,
Now that vimeo supports hdr, have you changed your position on using it?
Absolutely not. At this time, in December 2017, I have zero interest in HDR or HLG as a producer, content provider, or even as consumer. I do not own and HDR capable television. I don't know anyone who does. I don't have any friends or family who would even know what HDR or HLG is if I asked them. I am not aware of any television shows or streaming content (that I would watch anyway) that is being delivered in HDR. Not a single client has asked about HDR. So I don't see how adopting an HDR workflow would add a single dime to my bottom line, and after all, that is what it is all about at the end of the day.
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Old November 24th, 2017, 08:50 AM   #25
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Re: s-log and new Sony x90

It is kinda funny how things evolve Doug. When "HD" came out, many of us said almost all the things you said above....."why?" or "what for?" After all, when it first came out, no customer was asking me for it and nobody cared about "HD". Eventually, 720 and 1080 took over anyway.

"4k?....what for?....why?...nobody is asking for it. 1080 is all anybody needs" Today, 4k is creeping deeper and deeper into our lives. I stopped shooting 1080 about two years ago. I shoot 4k even for clients that only ask for 1080 delivery.

High Dynamic Range?...nobody wants it, nah...what for?

I think HDR is not a fad like 3D was. What killed 3D was clumbsy glasses and headaches, ghosting images and general ugliness like that. (Although 3D has been arround and lasted since I was a kid)

I have seen some spectacular HDR demonstrations at InfoComm and NAB in the last year that are truely spectacular....I mean mind blowing. Its one thing to shoot 14stops of dynamic range and grade it down to 6 or 7 stops for a rec709 projection or display.....Its another thing to SEE those ALL of 14 stops that you captured on a true HDR presentation. It has a very high "WOW" factor and I dont think this one is going to die.
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Old November 24th, 2017, 10:09 AM   #26
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Re: s-log and new Sony x90

Hi Cliff,

It is not the same thing at all as making the switch from SD to HD . . . or now HD to 4K. When we changed resolutions, nothing else really changed about how we shoot, light, framed, composed, exposed, etc. All we got was more resolution and it is/was very easy to dumb 4K to HD or HD to SD or whatever you want. Shooting in a higher resolution didn't compromise our ability to deliver a lower-resolution product, in fact, it could be argued that shooting at a higher resolution actually provided a better low-resolution product than if acquisition had been done at the lower resolution.

Can you say the same thing about shooting with S-LOG and/or HLG on the Z90? Are you certain that 8-bit S-LOG or HLG is going to provide you with a finished REC709 deliverable that looks better than if you had shot the same footage with a nice conventional Picture Profile? Are you prepared to say that is possible? Because I've used the camera and I'm not going to say that at this time about S-LOG and certainly not HLG.

I am not afraid of new technology or change. I was an early adopter of HD and made the switch in 2005 and never shot SD again. I made the switch to 4K in 2013 and I only shoot HD about 10% of the time. If clients didn't see the benefits of shooting at a higher resolution, I educate them until they say yes. But what is that argument today for HDR? What would I possibly tell an average client about HDR that is going to make them care? I know there are some clients who would benefit when their video will be displayed at trade shows, meetings, theaters, etc. where they provide the screens and viewing experiences. But that is not typical.

Technically I am already shooting in HDR today because I only shoot 10-bit S-LOG or 16-bit RAW with my F55 aand FS7. Both S-LOG and RAW can be graded for HDR at any time in the future that I deem it to be desirable. So that is good. But HDR is not the reason I am shooting S-LOG/RAW today. I am shooting S-LOG/RAW today because it gives me superior results today for REC709 delivery -- which is what pays the bills and puts food on the table today. Any benefit later on down the road for re-grading as HDR would just be icing on the cake.

And I may decide to shoot S-LOG with the Z90 for the exact same reasons. But I would not use HLG right now because I have no need for HLG at this time and it definitely cripples the high-end SDR delivery that I need today. I need to satisfy today's needs today before worrying about future-proofing my footage, if that future proofing compromised my needs for today. I have no doubts that HLG is not a good idea for post. HLG is a mode on the camera for live broadcasting for feeds to HLG equipped equipment. And I don't do either of those things. So for me, HLG is dead on delivery.

Before someone shoots HLG today, I suggest that they seriously ask themselves why? HLG and HDR might be the greatest things you have ever seen at a booth in a trade show, but how does that translate down to your use of a camera like the Z90 today in your own environment? What the hell is someone going to actually do with HDR today? What is it that a Z90 owner is going to do with HLG other than look at it on their home TV or put some samples online just for the heck of it? Seriously, forget about whether it looks better or not, what is the actual argument for shooting in HLG today? I'd love to hear it.

BTW, I make some extra income from stock footage (over $3K/mo.) and 95% of my sales are for the HD versions of the 4K clips that I upload. So if 4K isn't even in very high demand yet, I find it very hard to believe there is going to be a sudden surge in demand for HDR. Mind-blowing demonstrations at trade shows and great demo footage in a showroom at Best Buy have very little to do with the average joe on the street earning a living from video production.
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Old November 24th, 2017, 11:25 AM   #27
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Re: s-log and new Sony x90

I actually dont disagree with just about anything that you said. I think its pretty on-point with what is going on "today". I think that HLG is 5 years ahead of itself right now. It has very little use at the moment. However, HDR screens are slowly getting out there and YouTube is working on metadata flags to support it better.

But yeah...."today" it almost worthless.

The biggest problem is Sony's own implementation of HLG on many of its cameras. HLG is NOT supposed to be in 8bit color sampling. Even on the GH5, it FORCES you to select its 10bit CODECS to even be able activate HLG.

Sony insists that we shoot 4k HLG like its SLog...in 8bit. This is not what the BBC and NHK created HLG to be used in. Even YouTube changes its internet compression to 10bit on HLG flagged uploads. Yup....YouTube is doing 10bit compression for HLG delivery to homes!!

So, yeah...we all must agree that Sony is doing HLG "half-assed" to be totatly honest.

I also agree that Slog is all the "HDR" you need to capture and if your camera has Slog, just stick with Slog. HLG is "half-log" and Slog is "full log". Even if you are locked down to a crappy 8bit. (Yeah....we all know how "risky" Slog is in 8 bit)

Anyhoo....Sony, if you are serious about "HLG" than at least give it the proper 10bit sampling it deserves and was intended for.
I think that camera manufacturers will need to give up protecting 10bit for their upper models and begin offering it in lower models. Especially now that we are beggining to see consumer TVs being able to show 10bit color and HDR.

Consumer TV growth with 10bit color and HLG conversion will drive the demand on cameras. As HLG TVs get more and more popular, cameras and camera men will follow.

I think that rec709 will die very slowly. Its old now and it dates back to a time when 6 or 7 stops of caputure and display was the best a consumer could expect. Today, we can capture and display allot more than 6 or 7 stops.

Do I think that High Dynamic Range, Dolby Atmos HLG, rec2020/BT2020 and other standards have a bright future? Hell yes......why? Because technology is making it easier and more common.

Pratically every TV in 5 years will be HDR ready. Who out there will say in 5 years..."Yea...HDR is everywhere but im still a "rec709, 6 stop delivery guy"

CT

Last edited by Cliff Totten; November 24th, 2017 at 08:34 PM.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 07:14 AM   #28
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Re: s-log and new Sony x90

For anybody else trying to follow along with this HDR stuff....

Found some info on a Canon site that explains what HDR is all about. I found it highly readable and now see that this HDR, to be done correctly, is much more than flipping a switch on the camera or TV. Hopefully the "standards" that are mentioned have gained enough traction that we won't see a bunch of the early HDR TVs and cameras become instantly obsoleted (BluRay war).

http://learn.usa.canon.com/app/pdfs/...e-Papers-_-HDR

http://learn.usa.canon.com/app/pdfs/...pers-_-HDR-WCG
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Old November 25th, 2017, 07:51 AM   #29
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Re: s-log and new Sony x90

I would think that keeping an eye on what 4K SPORT broadcasters are doing as far as HDR would help to see where the HLG thing is going...as far as live HDR, you would expect to see it first applied to live sports coverage.

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Old November 25th, 2017, 11:50 AM   #30
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Re: s-log and new Sony x90

True....

Weather we like it or not. Most TV's in 5 years will all didplay 10-13+ stops of dynamic range. Even future OLED tablets and laptops will do this too.

Does anybody at all out here think that we will all be delivering in 6 stops of an "ancient" rec709? I think we ALL agree this will be the case.

The only "real" question is which 10bit consumer gamma standard will be the actual winner in this HDR race.

Sorry Sony....I love you to death but your 8bit HLG will be a total joke in 3 years. Nobody will capture HLG in 8bit and upload that for YouTube's 10bit encoding to be played on common 10bit HDR displays.

Unfortunately the Z90 will really be a rec709 camera. It will never be a real HDR camera for HDR delivery.

Sony,....please dont screw up and make the new A7S-III or A9S an 8bit camera. It will be DOA if you cripple it to 8bit only.

CT
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