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Old October 22nd, 2017, 09:29 AM   #16
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Re: Test footage from the PXWZ90

Craig, thanks for the clarification.
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 02:33 PM   #17
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Re: Test footage from the PXWZ90

I don't think MF will be faster on the Z90 since it's a problem to be found in the manual ring encoder that has a limited resolution. Steps are quite corse and if MF would be faster with this encoder precision would suffer.
You see the limited resolution of the encoder when you manual zoom with the ring, there are visible steps.
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 02:38 PM   #18
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Re: Test footage from the PXWZ90

I've seen some more presentations with Sony guys speaking about the Z90 specs and features.
4K is only 8bit 4:2:0 as with the X70, so 4K is NOT HDR since HDR requires at least 10bit!
Sony's claims on the websites for this series (Z90, AX700...) are wrong, close to scam in my eyes.
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 07:34 PM   #19
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Re: Test footage from the PXWZ90

Roland, you really need to back off with your slander for the Z90. Have you ever even touched one? Have you bothered to educated yourself on the specifications. Where does your information come from? You are spreading false rumors about a camera that you apparently know very little about.

1) XAVC HD is absolutely 10-bit 4:2:2 on the Z90.
2) Since XAVC HD is 10-bit, then HDR is possible, and it is not a "scam" as you claim.
3) There are no "visible steps" when manually focusing the Z90. Do you see any focus "stepping" in the video I posted above?

I don't know what your game is, but there is no need to make slanderous remarks that are not based on any actual knowledge of the product you're bashing.
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 07:38 PM   #20
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Re: Test footage from the PXWZ90

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Gunn View Post
Doug, just one question. The X70 lens requires lots of twist to focus. Did Sony address this issue on the Z90? I hope!!! It is very slow to manually focus on both of my X70s.
I have never touched an X70 so I am not in a position to compare that camera to a Z90. But with that said, I have found the manual focusing experience on the Z90 to be fantastic No complaints at all.
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 07:43 PM   #21
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Re: Test footage from the PXWZ90

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Originally Posted by Mark Watson View Post
From what I'm seeing on the specs, the camera comes with 8-bit everything and if you want 10-bit 4:2:2 HD, you pay another $500 for the CBKZ-SLMP option, bringing the total cost to $3,300. What's kind of odd is they say the bit rate maxes out at just 50Mbps for the HD files. UHD is 8-bit 4:2:0 60 or 100Mbps.

I'll get one if it turns out to be the best quality high speed camera in this form factor. Would like to have a longer zoom.

Doug, what's your opinion of image stabilization on this one? I found the AX100 was mediocre in that regard.
I haven't used the stabilization yet so I have no opinion. That will come later in my testing. One step at a time.

Craig already gave you a good answer about the CBKZ-SLMP upgrade, but I'll just add that you are highly unlikely to need it anyway. The upgrade is only useful for people who need to be backwards compatible with the traditional MPEG XDCAM codecs. The stock Z90 already has a better codec (XAVC) built-in when you buy it.
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 12:31 AM   #22
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Re: Test footage from the PXWZ90

Doug, Iīm sorry, YOU are right - halfways.
Since Iīm from Germany I only watched the sony.eu (german, also UK...) websites and there Sony claims without a doubt that the Z90 can do "4K HDR", not only 2K HDR as it is the truth.

The US website says in no word that this camera can do "4K HDR", it only says it can do HDR what is true for 2K.
https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-br...oduct-PXWZ90V/


The sony.eu/.de website goes further. Here we clearly see the camcorder can do "4K HDR" which is wrong since the camera canīt do 10bit in 4K.
https://www.sony.de/pro/product/broa...pecifications/

Sorry for that, I thought they do the same "scam" worldwide, but, what do we see here?!
https://www.sony.com/electronics/han...ders/fdr-ax700
"4K HDR" with the AX700 that canīt do HDR in any case since itīs completely limited to 8bit.


For the manual ring encoder the X70īs was quite not of the very best resolution, I can see steps when manually zooming and focusing if you look very careful. Maybe double check that, I do not think this is improved, but maybe Iīm wrong there. Doing focus pulls with rubber bands or so had to be done with a higher speed not to see the steps. But that camera isnīt made for things like this.

Last edited by Roland Schulz; October 23rd, 2017 at 02:49 AM.
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Old October 24th, 2017, 02:18 AM   #23
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Re: Test footage from the PXWZ90

Isn't there a difference between HDR and increased color gamut? I am not sure even if you gave the Z90 10 bit 4K that it would be able to provide any additional colors, since it is not really capable of producing the colors of normal HD video. :)

Doug, if you zoom in to full telephoto, does the Z90 require many, many, many turns of the focus ring to go from close to infinity? That is the issue with the X70, and at wide angle, you go from macro to infinity with the slightest turn.

Paul
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Old October 24th, 2017, 02:29 AM   #24
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Re: Test footage from the PXWZ90

Paul, you are right, the color gamut also has to be increased for HDR but that's something not to easy to verify. Sony USA is halfways right not to call the Z90 "4K HDR", but in Germany, UK and other countries they call it "4K HDR" and also do this wirh the AX700 (as in the US) and thats simply not true because of lacking 4K 10bit.

Really would be interesting to see if the manual ring encoder of the newer cameras still have mediocre resolution resulting in steps while zooming/focusing like the X70 does. Ok, thats a thing not everybody will mention immediately.
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Old October 24th, 2017, 06:38 AM   #25
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Re: Test footage from the PXWZ90

Its perfectly fair to say that the Z90 is an "HDR" camcorder.....yes, even in 8bit 4k. Why? Because that sensor captures about 10-11 stops of dynamic range.

The dymamic range captured in 4k 8bit is absolutely identicle to 1080 10bit. So yeah, its an "HDR" camera on 4k too.

Yes, you are right that hybrid log gamma "should" be recorded in 10bit to stop banding problems when its expanded by the TV or during color grading. No argument there..."should" be 10bit for "best" results.

Look, I have shot TONS of SLOG (and VLOG) in both 8bit and 10bit. Yes, 10bit is by far the desired color sampling depth. But,....you "can" shoot SLOG2 in 8bit and still get great results.


Yes, it "can" sometimes burn you in skys and you are sometimes rolling the dice with it in 8bit.

Of the HLG footage I have shot with my Z150, its all generally turned out OK when I tweak it to rec709 800%. I have yet to watch this HLG on a true HDR screen but in rec709, the 8bit image holds reasonably well.

CT
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Old October 24th, 2017, 07:52 AM   #26
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Re: Test footage from the PXWZ90

My a6500 smokes my X70 in regards of dynamic range (>13 a6500 vs. <11 stops X70) but it also only does 8bit so per definition it's no HDR cam neither the Z90 is in 4K, HDR video is defined in several standards as 10bit as HLG is.
I avoid S-LOG in 8bit since the most "important" shades are compressed to strong. Instead I prefer using Cinegamma 1 at least on the a6500 with the same DR. Maybe give it a try.

Maybe sounds I don't like the X70 or Z90 - no, my X70 is an absolutely stunning package/camera, not without flaws but it produces absolutely stunning pictures! I guess the Z90 will be somewhat better.
I don't like Sony presenting these cameras as 4K HDR cameras (in EU, AX700 also in the US) what they simply not are. I would also not call a 11 stop camera a HDR camera even if that's enough in many cases. If they had given us 10bit in 4K that would have been ok and I don't think this would have been an impossible mission, even not with 50p in UHD. Panasonic did both with the GH5, also with slight oversampling, for the "same" price.
Sony is a bit behind now, even Canon brought 4K 50p with the XF400 but to admit from what I've seen to date with a more interesting lens (more wide!!!) but at a worse quality off center, but hard to judge from that few YT videos.
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Old October 24th, 2017, 09:10 AM   #27
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Re: Test footage from the PXWZ90

My interest in HLG and HDR in October 2017 is so tiny that it cannot be measured by any scientific instrument invented by man. I do not have an HDR monitor. I do have a single client who has asked for HDR or would even know what HDR is -- let alone HLG. And from my early testing, I am not convinced that shooting in HLG mode can deliver exceptional results for both HDR and SDR at the same time. I am not willing to compromise my needs today for a supposed benefit someplace down the road. HLG might be fantastic technology in a few months or years that I won't be able to live without, but for now, I'm not going to waste any time thinking about it, testing it, or shooting with it.

My questions is, who cares about HLG production today and why?
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Old October 24th, 2017, 09:18 AM   #28
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Re: Test footage from the PXWZ90

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Originally Posted by Paul Anderegg View Post
Doug, if you zoom in to full telephoto, does the Z90 require many, many, many turns of the focus ring to go from close to infinity? That is the issue with the X70, and at wide angle, you go from macro to infinity with the slightest turn.
Paul
The Z90 focusing works much better than how you have described the X70. As I may have already said, I have no complaints at all about focusing with the Z90. In fact, I prefer it over many of Sony's e-mount lenses that I've used on the FS5 and/or FS7.
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Old October 24th, 2017, 10:08 AM   #29
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Re: Test footage from the PXWZ90

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Originally Posted by Roland Schulz View Post
My a6500 smokes my X70 in regards of dynamic range (>13 a6500 vs. <11 stops X70) but it also only does 8bit so per definition it's no HDR cam neither the Z90 is in 4K, HDR video is defined in several standards as 10bit as HLG is.
I avoid S-LOG in 8bit since the most "important" shades are compressed to strong. Instead I prefer using Cinegamma 1 at least on the a6500 with the same DR. Maybe give it a try.

Maybe sounds I don't like the X70 or Z90 - no, my X70 is an absolutely stunning package/camera, not without flaws but it produces absolutely stunning pictures! I guess the Z90 will be somewhat better.
I don't like Sony presenting these cameras as 4K HDR cameras (in EU, AX700 also in the US) what they simply not are. I would also not call a 11 stop camera a HDR camera even if that's enough in many cases. If they had given us 10bit in 4K that would have been ok and I don't think this would have been an impossible mission, even not with 50p in UHD. Panasonic did both with the GH5, also with slight oversampling, for the "same" price.
Sony is a bit behind now, even Canon brought 4K 50p with the XF400 but to admit from what I've seen to date with a more interesting lens (more wide!!!) but at a worse quality off center, but hard to judge from that few YT videos.
Well?...it's not fair to compare the A6500's highly advanced APS-C sensor to the much smaller 1 inch-types. That A6500 sensor is mind blowing. If they ever put that in a proper camcorder body with 10bit readout, that would be dangerous! They would, of course need to clock that sensor scan faster to straighten up the rolling shutter and would probably need an actively cooled body like the FS5.

Well?, that leads us to this question;

"Is 11 stops capture even classified as "High" dynamic range?"

I dont believe that the European HLG standard actually defines this. I would say "yes" it is HDR. For me, if rec709 is about 6 stops, if you have 5 stops more DR than yeah, that's "high" to me. It's "high" relative to rec709 anyway. The GH5 in V-LOG is only about a stop more (maybe) and I would call that "HDR" in my book. Remember, a 10bit encoded color depth doesn't give any more dynamic range to the same signal encoded at 8bit. We only care about the possible 8bit contrast expansion artifacts that could happen. But the dynamic range itself is identical.

Doug, I know you dont care about HLG today but have you tested SLOG-2 on the X90? The closest thing I have to this today is the RX10-III which presumably has the same sensor as the X90. Now,....I HAVE gotten great dynamic range capture with SLOG-2 in 8bit. I have recorded some excellent shots and graded them beautifully with no banding. However, with that said, I have also gotten burned on "some" scenes with SLOG-2 and 8bit.

So, 8bit SLOG-2 has been a combination of many "home runs" with some nasty "strike outs" too. If you are going to use SLOG-2 in 8bit, it's a "rolling of the dice" thing.

Doug, are you making a training video for the X90? If so, I'm sure Sony would love for you to touch on HLG as they are going to push HLG in marketing campaigns from now on. The X90 only has three real things over it's X70 predecessor.

New BSI, fully stacked RS sensor with high speed readout.
PDAF - Phase Detection Auto Focus
Log gamma options - (HLG & SLOG)

That's pretty much it.

CT

Last edited by Cliff Totten; October 24th, 2017 at 11:56 AM.
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Old October 24th, 2017, 03:24 PM   #30
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Re: Test footage from the PXWZ90

Hi Cliff,

Yeah, I'm sure Sony would love for me to cover HLG but unless someone can make the case for HLG and convince me it has any value at all to the average Z90 owner, then I will cover it in about 60 seconds and move on. I didn't waste my attention on 3D either a few years ago, and I was vindicated. I didn't waste my time with S-LOG1 as it was implemented on the F3 either, and I was vindicated. There are much more important things to learn about the Z90 than HLG. And if shooting HLG means that you will have an inferior (as I suspect) standard dynamic range picture, then how could I recommend it? I am not in the business of promoting cameras based on dubious "features".

Who can make the case for HLG? I'm waiting to hear it.
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