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Old February 12th, 2018, 07:35 AM   #31
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

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Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
What will you be looking for? You will see a standard rec709 image with standard rec709 contrast. The same holds true if I shot something on a Sony F55, FS7, RED or Arri.

Look at any Hollywwod Blu-ray. All you see is standard rec709 on that thing. Yet, most movies are captured with much higher dynamic range cameras.

So yes....if your goal is to deliver rec709 ONLY. Than yes, just take a 15 stop Arri or RED camera and shoot in a (6stop) rec709 profile and expose EXACTLY in the field as you want the rec709 Blu-ray to look....and its a wrap. No expensive Hollywood colorist needed.

When you watch a 6-7 stop rec709 image, the viewer will NEVER know two things:

1.) What "more" did that camera see in the field with that 15stop ARRI camera that I "cant" see in rec709 today. Did the camera man under expose or over expose by a little bit? You and I will NEVER see those mistakes on a Blu-ray. Only the colorist saw it.

2.) What did the colorist actually "throw away" to grade this down to the Hollywood rec709 Blu-ray that I'm watching?
Cliff,
Do you really believe what you said above?
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Old February 12th, 2018, 09:52 AM   #32
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

Cliff, we obviously have two very different views of reality. HDR delivery is so low on my list of priorities it cannot be measured by any instrument made by man. I saw a homeless man on the corner yesterday with a sign that said "Will Shoot and Grade HDR" for food. He had no shoes.

And then I passed a production company that had a sign out front that said, "Going out of Business due to Shooting S-LOG on the Z90 instead of REC709". Sad, very sad.

Crunch all the numbers you want, fret about the specifications, complain why Sony didn't do this or that, all you want to. I'll wave to you as I pass by on my way to the bank. Anyone who really gives a crap about HDR or high-end production shouldn't even have a Z90 on their radar. It is a tiny, portable, very capable and fun to shoot with camera, but it is not an F55 or Alexa. Get real. We live in an a REC709 world, so get used to it. HDR is for NAB booths and Best Buy showrooms. Not forever, but for a few more years at least. In the mean time, I'm more concerned with billing clients for todays's needs.

And I'd still like to see your glorious footage showing us how S-LOG on the Z90 is so fantastic.
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Old February 12th, 2018, 11:15 AM   #33
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

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Cliff,
Do you really believe what you said above?
This was my reply to Doug's suggestions about high dynamic range in general. The idea about shooting rec709 in the field because that's what you are going to deliver anyway.

I shot a 14 video set of engineers doing lectures and training classes. There is no reason on planet Earth to shoot that in SLog. So I shot in Cine. Stuff like this? and weddings...general stuff like that. However, last summer I shot 7 days in YellowStone (for myself) with 4 Terrabytes worth of sprawling landscapes, scenic waterfalls and tons of wildlife. I shot that in V-Log to 10bit ProRes.

So there is a place for everything.

I'm actually going to upload my personal YelloStone edit to YouTube for their 10bit HDR encoding mode....for "fun" and the "wow factor" of it. (I dont understand their "HDR" metadata flags yet though)

Yes Doug, you will get no argument from me on the sales-ability of HDR today. There is no market for it right now. You are right. I 100% get what you are saying about paid jobs.

In my dynamic range rant,...I'm talking about something different. My Yellowstone video was not a paid job. I'm mostly stuck into a very boring world of corporate training videos, seminars and lectures for part time paid jobs. I do allot of live PowerPoint presentation recordings and video sync with split screen for demonstrations and I also do live presentation webcasting too. I have several events clients like that. I do video work part time, not full time. I worked for a large global media company full time for 22 years. (I'm an IT/AV special events and Cisco Telepresence engineer. I engineer large AV events all over Latin America)

My 'personal" videos are the ones I will go "all out" for and have a real passion for. Like "Yellowstone", "Glacier National Park", "Yosemite" and others. (I also fly UAS too...but not on NPS property)

Anyway,...I never said there was ANYTHING "glorious" about SLog from a from an 8bit 1inch-type sensor 10.5 stop image sensor. I KNOW there is absolutely nothing "glorious" about it all!

I'm not the one who claimed the Z90/NX80 has "14 stops of dynamic range"....that is 100% YOUR "GLORIOUS" claim! "YOU" actually claimed it had F55 and ARRI amounts of dynamic range!..."NOT ME!"

I'M the guy that is correcting YOU by saying that the Z90 has much LESS!

What am "I" saying?....I'm only saying you can get GOOD 1inch-type sensor class results with SLog-2 under careful usage in certain scenes. It's not "glorious" at all.

I WILL call 12 stops of 10bit VariCam colors in V-Log-l on the GH5 in 10bit ProRes after a 5k sensor readout....."glorious". THAT is quite beautiful.

For anybody else reading this: Again, I'm not DEMANDING that anybody believe me that you can actually benefit from SLog-2 or HLG on the NX80/Z90. Please,..don't believe me,...it wont hurt my feelings! My only advise to you is "TRY IT" and judge for yourself. Don't let me or anybody anybody tell you that you CAN or CAN'T do something and take it as 100% gospel.

Just TRY it and "you" be the judge.

Agreed,..there is no market for HDR today.

Doug, I'm going to bring a body guard with me to NAB....don't get all "John Wayne" with me!! Whoever it was that told you the Z90 had 14 stops of DR,..."HE" is the guy you need to punch! Hahaha!

I hope that people can see that I'm very light hearted about this stuff.

Love, CT ;-)

Last edited by Cliff Totten; February 12th, 2018 at 12:09 PM.
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Old February 12th, 2018, 12:18 PM   #34
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

You two need to agree to disagree. Either way, these are great little cameras.
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Old February 12th, 2018, 12:28 PM   #35
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

I agree with you Donald and completely Disagree with Cliff. Time for me to move on and stop looking at this thread.
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Old February 12th, 2018, 01:28 PM   #36
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

Very well, that's fair enough. I wont ask you any more questions then. Thats cool.

I have vigorously chatted with Doug over the years and have met him in person several times, enough to believe that neither one of us takes our differing opinions personally.

The guy is totatly good in my book. I certainly respect him and have no problem with him...even when we vigorously disagree at times. Trust me, I agree with Doug much more things than I disagree with him.

There are only two topics I have ever disagreed with Doug on...SLog and Sony's Phase Detection AF. Now on the AF, I "think" that Doug might finally agree with me about how powerful its focus tracking TRUELY is. (Faster than both of us pulling focus manually on a speeding object) If so,...it's good to have you over here Doug. We have one less topic to debate about. ;-)

Thats what makes this a good place to come to.

In this industry, there are MANY disagreements about the "proper" way to do something. We all know this. Emerging and changing technology causes even MORE debate.

All in all....debate and wide ranging opinions are a GOOD thing and nothing to shy away from.

Everything is cool.
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Old February 12th, 2018, 01:32 PM   #37
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

All is good, I am not shying away just very overloaded. I have my strong opinion based on results and they work for me. And you have to do what works for you.
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Old February 12th, 2018, 03:28 PM   #38
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

I never said that the Z90 didn't have 14 stops of DR, I have only confessed that I cannot measure it myself so it is only possible that it does not. I don't know what the real DR is, and what is more important, I don't care. It is what it is and there is nothing that can be done about it one way or another. Suppose you were told that an engine had a certain horsepower and then found out later it was less, would that change the performance of the car or how you drive it? The camera is what it is. I have driven it in S-LOG and I prefer not to do so ever again. The camera runs great in REC709 mode and with a no extra labor or steps in post.

As for my opinion of phase detection AF, this is the first camcorder I've had my hands on that uses phase detection. I don't care what Sony's mirrorless cameras can do because they are not video camcorders. So no change of opinion here.

Cliff, I know you are desperate to try some little thing you can point out that I said or did wrong, so keep working at it. I'm sure you'll find something. When someone puts themselves and their opinions out there as much as I'm willing to do, a mistake here or there is inevitable.
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Old February 12th, 2018, 03:29 PM   #39
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

OK, I had to come back Cliff and answer your question since that is only fair. I am waiting for a render and have a few minutes.

You are saying you can shoot in camera Rec 709 at 6 stops, and I can shoot SLOG at 12 stops of the same shot. Then I grade in Resolve 14 studio, and you cannot see the difference once they are put online?

Funny my clients who have no idea what this is all about say, “Wow, it looks so real what is the difference”. Well the difference is I can bring the highlights in, keep detail in the blacks, and whites with Latitude.

Latitude is king and always has been, and always will be. Does not matter what the delivery is, if you can keep the latitude you can see the difference. And SLOG goes way beyond just latitude, it lets you have control over everything. But if you are not using grading software like Resolve 14 and try to do it in PP CC or Final Cut, well that is not using the right tool for the job and you will not get the results.

And 10-bit camera are far superior to 8-bit cameras when it comes to LOG. Another thing my non-educated camera clients see. Now my educated camera clients demand 10-bit SLOG, with nice Cine Glass.

But as I said in a prior post if you do not need these things for your clients, that is fine if they don’t care. But to say there is no difference is not the facts.

I hope that answers your question of why I disagreed with in your post.
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Old February 12th, 2018, 04:08 PM   #40
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

Sure Paul. SLog does capture everything the sensor can visibly see from it's brightest white to it's darkest black. This is because the contrast is compressed into a curve that can be "packed" into a 6 stop container.

This is the exact reason Slog or VLog looks very very "bad" or "flat. This is a beautiful thing.

So now we know we have 10 or 12 or 14 stops "compressed" in a rec709 container....what do we do now? We need to "expand" that compression back out again. But, the problem is: How do we expand and re-contrast out 14 stops for a 6 or 7 stop rec709 delivery? We cant just leave ALL of that in place because the only way rec709 can hold it is to KEEP it compressed. For rec709 to look good, it NEEDS contrast. So all you can do is expand your log and "bend" the gamma on the places you want to keep.

Rec709 is very limited to 6 or 7 stops with "normal" looking contrast. You cant store 14 stops inside of it and have it look good. The best you could pull off is something like a rec709 800% style of contrast. If that was the case, there would be no need to log compression in the first place. This is where BT2020 and Rec2020 takes over. Those gamma curves WERE designed for high dynamic range scope. But those TV's are designed to handle that signal.

So you and I and the rest of the world normalize log and we bend and shape and we curve and slope and adjust the colors as much as we can to fit the most we can into rec709 and still have it look good. When we draw out highlights in for example, all we are doing is collapsing the contrast in the highlights so that it "fits".

Interesting...have you ever used an Atomos Shogun with it's HDR function. It is able to "show" you 10 stops of your log without using an actual "LUT" because that screen is bright enough actually display native log highlights and shadows. Pretty cool.

Eventually, very soon. HLG is a "half log" curve that and HLG TV will actually expand properly into very bright, non compressed highlights. There is no need to draw them in because the TV knows how to display it outside of rec709 limitations.

Yes, Doug, I know you dont care about this. I'm saying this for the few people that DO find the future interesting...even though there is no money in it right now.

As far as Sony's Phase Detection AF goes. It actually appeared on their Alpha cameras first and then made it's way over to the XDCAM world. Every new Sony camera will use this morning forward. I was excited about this a while ago when I told you. So, this technology on the Z90 is nothing new anymore.

Last but not least. People often takes these topics very seriously. I do, but I also am light hearted enough to have "fun" with discussing them. I really hope that people dont take my sense of humor and sarcasm to heart. I'm just an irreverent, happy person by nature. I usually have a BIG smile on my face as I type this stuff.

I only say one thing. Just try these things I say for yourself "then" believe them or not believe them. Either way, it doesn't matter to me. I don't get satisfaction out of people doing things "my" way or seeing people subscribe to my way of thinking on anything! It really does nothing for me.

CT ;-)

Last edited by Cliff Totten; February 12th, 2018 at 07:43 PM.
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Old February 12th, 2018, 04:18 PM   #41
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

Ah this is what I thought you would say.

Keep Having Fun Cliff,

Paul out with a big smile on my face
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Old February 12th, 2018, 04:22 PM   #42
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

I'm all for testing things for oneself, but one of the points of a forum like this is to save people a lot of time going over the same ground. If I'm hiking and another hiker coming the other way tells me the trail is blocked a couple of miles ahead, I do not need to continue going down the path to see for myself. Well, I have gone down the S-LOG path and my advice is to turn back now and save yourself some time. I am an experienced S-LOG user with my F55, FS7, FS5, etc. and I know how to do serious grading in Resolve. So my advice to my fellow hikers coming behind me is that the road ahead is blocked and they should seek a different path to get to the same destination. In fact, that other path is actually shorter and and easier, so why fight it?
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Old February 12th, 2018, 04:31 PM   #43
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

Paul - If you can find a way to fit all 14 or 16 stops (or 20 stops) into a "normal" contrast into rec709 gamma curve. I think we'd all love to see that. They have a name for this. It's called logarithmic gamma "compression". This is "why" we NEED log curves...and the reason why they look horrible in log.

They don't look "flat" for the fun of it, they look flat because "that" trick is what made all that dynamic range even possible to begin with in rec709.

Remember, SLog-3 and VLog are 16 stop curves based on Cineon. This is why 14 stops leaves unused headroom on the top and bottom of that curve from a 14 stop camera. It's 16 stops "compressed" inside 6-7 stops of rec709. It looks delightfully horrible!

You have to appreciate "contrast",..the "distance" between the top of your wave form and the bottom of your wave form and all the mid tones in between. Rec709 just doesn't have the "distance" to cover 16 stops worth of brightness in it's "normal" calibrated high contrast.

What is wrong with this explanation? Am I saying or wording it wrong?

CT

Last edited by Cliff Totten; February 12th, 2018 at 07:12 PM.
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Old February 12th, 2018, 04:41 PM   #44
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

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I'm all for testing things for oneself, but one of the points of a forum like this is to save people a lot of time going over the same ground. If I'm hiking and another hiker coming the other way tells me the trail is blocked a couple of miles ahead, I do not need to continue going down the path to see for myself. Well, I have gone down the S-LOG path and my advice is to turn back now and save yourself some time. I am an experienced S-LOG user with my F55, FS7, FS5, etc. and I know how to do serious grading in Resolve. So my advice to my fellow hikers coming behind me is that the road ahead is blocked and they should seek a different path to get to the same destination. In fact, that other path is actually shorter and and easier, so why fight it?
I appreciate that Doug. I sincerely do. But you have to understand that there are other people that have a different opinion of that hiking trail you just came back from. If Alister Chapman (who is no idiot) and many other people tell me that trail isn't THAT bad and that you could get around the trail block with a short detour. Now we have a difference of many "opinions" about that same trail. (a NORMAL thing in hiking!) I have used 8bit Slog-2 myself and have had "good" success with it. Yes, I shoot 10bit most of the time today because I have six cameras and two can do 10bit, 4k Slog and Vlog. If I "only" had a Z90, I'd carefully use Slog-2 in certain situations.

Even Sony, the people that designed these gamma curves believes it's useful to add to the camera. So your opinion goes directly against theirs too. This is all fine. Each of us is NOT the "be all-end all" judge on camera technology. None of us are. And it would be arrogant to push that idea. (not saying you are doing this)

I was told rolling shutter cameras are "garbage" and to only use global shutter cameras...maybe he is right! But rolling shutter cameras WORK for "me"...not him....but for "me" they do. The guy was just a high end camera "snob"...but how could I say he was "wrong"? Hell,...I'd love to have a rolling shutter camera too.

This debate goes on in forums aground the world and countless YouTube camera guys year after year.... 8bit Slog, "yes" or "no"? I say..."maybe"...at times if you need it"

Doug, you are one voice of many...

CT

Last edited by Cliff Totten; February 12th, 2018 at 07:08 PM.
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Old February 13th, 2018, 02:47 AM   #45
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

Where's the footage from you or Alister to prove those claims? Nothing? I rest my case.
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