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Old March 3rd, 2018, 01:47 PM   #76
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

Perhaps I'm missing something! This footage above is not a 'test but rather a demonstration of what the shooter can do with the particular cam along with what he can do in post. The same must be said about Simon Wyndham's footage.

A test, that is a scientifically valid test, as I understand it consists of a control, that is the camera set on a tripod with all settings somewhat standard and footage recorded then the same camera, same settings, same light, same everything except now shooting in the variation being tested, Vlog or whatever. Post the ungraded footage and for all to download and grade, or whatever.

Neither Doug's nor Simon's footage meets the most fundamental definition of a 'test' and consequently proves nothing other than both shooters are somewhat competent camera operators and probably highly incompetent scientists :-)

This is not rocket science in fact this is hardly more than Secondary School level science. I would dearly like to see a test, a real test, a valid test, of the subject under discussion.
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Old March 3rd, 2018, 02:03 PM   #77
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

OK Doug,...even "I'm" getting tired of this topic but I guess you want to keep thing going.....

I can clearly see you are not even reading these posts. I did not upload that "Simon video". If you were actually reading you would see that it looks to me that he underexposed his SLog-2 and yes, SLog-3 is terrible on this camera.

Do we all know what we get when we underexpose Slog-2 and don't expose it to the right? You record wasted headroom on "air"and this leads to excessive noise on every camera that is done on.

OK,...So I'm guessing you didn't even bother to look at the files I posed here. But I'll take the time to do a quick Slog-2 grade form the files I already posted. I somehow doubt you will look at that anyway too.

Stay tuned....
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Old March 3rd, 2018, 02:19 PM   #78
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

John, both of these video are indeed tests of the camera, but granted, not the kind of head to head tests between various settings that you would like to see. But I have done those tightly controlled A vs B tests and S-LOG always comes out the loser. Iím not going to post those tests because they were done with people and locations that didnít consent to being presented for public display. So someone can either believe me, call me a fool, or just go along their merry way, it makes no difference to me. But Iím not going to waste my time shooting new tests just to prove what I already know to be the case.

I say that non-SLOG shooing is the best way to use the camera and I have posted plenty of footage that I feel is more than good enough to use in a broadcast-quality production. I have put my footage where my mouth is. So if someone else says S-LOG is better, then I simply ask to see some great looking footage that shows S-LOG at its best on the Z90. It doesnít even have to be head to head testing (although that would be nice). I just want to see some nice S- LOG footage from the people that who promote its use. Whereís the footage? Simonís footage sure hasnít made the case, nor would my own if I posted it.
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Old March 3rd, 2018, 02:25 PM   #79
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

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Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
. I did not upload that "Simon video"....
Did I say you uploaded it? I said you posted it, meaning that you brought it into this conversation in your post. Are we really going to get hung up on semantics now???? I am truly out of this thread. Goodbye. Post whatever you want, call me a name, insult my mother, burn the flag, I don’t care. I am gone and you can have the last word.

Oh, and don’t come up to me next month at NAB and act like this is all good fun and we should have a jolly laugh. I consider this a serious topic and you are wasting my time.
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Old March 3rd, 2018, 04:44 PM   #80
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

So I sit back and read how this thread has morphed since it started. It's funny how a simple thing like SLog vs Cine profiles on a camera can grow and grow into such a thing like this.

Many of us are very passionate about our experiences with our cameras. It's very NORMAL for passionate people to have vigorous disagreements about the in's and out's of their industry. Take 10,000 mechanics, doctors, lawyers, politicians, economists, or camera guys and get them all each together into their groups and in a very short while they will all be bickering with each other who is smarter than the other or who is wrong or right.

I really, really get it. It would be really weird if we all agreed on everything. Let's face it. Canon guys think Sony sucks. Sony guys think Panasonic sucks. RED guys say Canon, Sony and Panny suck.We all go 'round and around everyday in forums throwing out our opinions,...and we all seem believe we are right and they other guy is wrong. This is perfectly normal and OK.

At the end of the day we are just talking about camera science here. I respect everybody here,...I really really do. Even the guy with 1 post to his name can contribute in the arena of ideas.

I never EVER take anything here personally and certainly will never intentionally insult anybody. I'll be happy to greet anybody here in a convention with a firm handshake and a sincere smile. I dont feel any need to be "believed" here one bit. If somebody tells me: "Cliff, you are wrong about SLog-2...it has zero dynamic range improvements over Cine's" I would say "Awesome!.....do what works for you" and I will shake his/her hand with no problem!

I certainly have ZERO animosity (non whatsoever) for people that disagree with me and I hope we could ALL be that way here.

Unfortunately, I'll probably be at Sony for several hours next month. Doug, I'm perfectly fine to shake your hand but if you prefer, I'll bring a pair of plastic black frame glasses with the rubber mustache and wear that near the ENG cameras section. (You will probably still spot me...just dont give me that "John Wayne" punch! ;-) I think there is a Sony Z-170 coming out so I can't avoid that nearby camera. (The A7S-III is going to be insane if it has 10bit)

John McCully is right, these are not great tests to be doing a serious determination of a camera. However, for what it's worth, (maybe not much!) I graded the SLog-2 file in my Cine/SLog-2 test. I'm going out Miami Beach tomorrow to shoot some drone footage. I'll bring my NX80 and shoot SLog-2 on some bright white boats in the Florida sun and see if I can get some good shots with SLog-2 protecting those bright whites....or maybe it wont???

I'll throw a few graded clips up tomorrow night. Maybe it will be "rubbish", maybe it will be "OK" or maybe it might even be "pretty darn good". Who knows? If there is anybody interested, they will be the ultimate judge. Some might say I was right, some will say I was dead wrong. That is OK, I'm my own judge and every viewer is their own judge. Right?

Either way, I will respect everybody's opinion equally.

CT
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Old March 3rd, 2018, 08:42 PM   #81
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

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Originally Posted by Doug Jensen View Post
John, both of these video are indeed tests of the camera, but granted, not the kind of head to head tests between various settings that you would like to see. But I have done those tightly controlled A vs B tests and S-LOG always comes out the loser. I’m not going to post those tests because they were done with people and locations that didn’t consent to being presented for public display. So someone can either believe me, call me a fool, or just go along their merry way, it makes no difference to me. But I’m not going to waste my time shooting new tests just to prove what I already know to be the case.

I say that non-SLOG shooing is the best way to use the camera and I have posted plenty of footage that I feel is more than good enough to use in a broadcast-quality production. I have put my footage where my mouth is. So if someone else says S-LOG is better, then I simply ask to see some great looking footage that shows S-LOG at its best on the Z90. It doesn’t even have to be head to head testing (although that would be nice). I just want to see some nice S- LOG footage from the people that who promote its use. Where’s the footage? Simon’s footage sure hasn’t made the case, nor would my own if I posted it.
Some more information on Simon's SLog-3 footage - When I said it was underexposed, I was right. I opened his RedShark article and this is what he said:


________________________

"In my test footage below you will notice noise in the lowlights. But this should be taken in context of the user. I played very safe with the exposure, despite knowing that with S-Log3 it is usually best to err on over exposure without clipping to minimise this. This is just a case of using the camera for much longer and testing extensively how much you can get away with. Having said this I do not find the noise to be objectionable. In fact the camera copes very well indeed with high gain settings. Far better than I had expected." - Simon Wyndham
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A couple of things that we know about SLog is that over exposing is a must. The more light you let in the higher the signal to noise ratio goes. This pushes your signal further and further away form the noise floor. We also know that you shouldn't record SLog or VLog any higher than 0db gain. Simon knew he was under exposing and did it to test the noise floor of the camera. This is fine as a "test" but not how this camera performs on "normal" SLog-2 over exposure. This is CRITICAL information by Simon.

I think his notes here and his intentions tell us allot about why his video looks like this. The second I saw the raw parts, I said; "hmmm,...he is under exposing,...big time"

Remember cassette tapes? Remember how we used to record our music levels as hot as we could before tape saturation? Why did we do this? Because we wanted the music to be as far ABOVE the tape hiss (noise floor) that we could possibly get it. What did tapes sound like if your peaks were -10 or 15db under zero? Woof,...hissy and noisy as Hell.

When we shoot in SLog it allows us to open up and bring in MORE light than "non-log" gamma and this allows the Log curve to compress that brightness...but like a cassette recording, we want to get the signal as strong as possible over that noise floor without clipping our wave. The further away your music is from the noise floor, the cleaner your playback is.

It's a good RedShark article. It's important to read his writing BEFORE we judge the video he shot. What he says changes everything about the test. (Yes, I personally would never use SLog-3 on this camera but that just me)

CT
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Old March 4th, 2018, 06:55 PM   #82
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

Hold on a second, I need more popcorn...

This is almost as entertaining as watching the NRA go at it with high school students...

Paul
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Old March 4th, 2018, 08:01 PM   #83
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

Nah,...this is all much ado about something small.

This is just allot of "passion" on display. Maybe by "both" of us. He believes SLog-2 is rubbish and unusable and I don't agree. I agree it's not spectacular but I do say that it "is" usable if you shoot it right. This is just a 1inch-type sensor, after all.

I always say "1inch-type" sensor because none of these Sony sensors actually measure 1 inch. That is why Sony almost always says" "1inch-type" sensor in their marketing material. That size specification actually refers to old archaic standard measurement for vacuum tube cameras. (long story...but it's NOT 1 inch in actual size)

Anyhoo,...I believe SLog-2 can help with highlight protection and that you "can" use it in certain situations.

If I was recording a rock concert with rapid fire RGB changing lights blasting in all directions and on faces, I would use SLog-2 on this guy with no hesitation. I just shot a couple of some very bright scenes today at the beach. I did a grade tonight and it came out great. I did use light noise reduction and a custom SLog-2 to rec709 800% LUT that I built in LUT Calc.

Will shoot another couple of clips tomorrow and throw them up tomorrow night and anybody can judge for themselves. I over exposed about 2 (roughly) stops without clipping my super whites.

Everybody will judge for themselves. These are clean grades with high contrast and deep color saturation. Surprisingly have not seen any 8bit banding in blue sky. (yet)

CT
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Old March 5th, 2018, 12:41 PM   #84
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

Since I only shoot 60P I am interested in how these cameras behave with Slog2 and HLG in 60P. Even though for HDR one should really be in UHD and 10bit !!!
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Old March 6th, 2018, 07:02 AM   #85
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

At least the epic 1959 movie BEN-HUR had an intermission......
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Old March 8th, 2018, 12:36 PM   #86
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

I wonder if one of us should start a thread specifically on S-Log since it's not clear that's where we've headed given the Title of this thread. New readers aren't likely to know that it's being discussed here and if they begin reading they might run away.
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Old March 14th, 2018, 12:35 AM   #87
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

I performed an "I am bored" HLG test the other night...using a dark setting with a bright light in the middle. I shot clips in REC709 and HLG BT2020, imported into FCPX using the proper HDR library settings, but the highlight handling was basically identical. I have no idea what to do with these HLG files, as I have no way to view them on my HDR 4K TV set, and no way to playback 10 bit HDR out of my Macbook or PC. I see the new 2018 Samsung 4K TV's have HLG, maybe those sets would recognize these clips as HDR.

Paul
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Old March 14th, 2018, 07:58 AM   #88
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

But don't all these new Sony's shoot UHD in 8 bit, 4:2:0 150Mbps. Does the Z90 shoot HLG HD 4:2:2 10bit ? rec709 and bt2020 would be colour difference the highlights should be the same ?
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Old March 14th, 2018, 11:31 AM   #89
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

Iím currently going through withdrawal. Last week I sold the AX100 (*sniff*) with the intention of springing for the NX80. Somewhere I had read that the NX80 was better than the Z90 with regard to Ö something Ö related to motion capture. Frame rate? Mbps? Just donít remember and canít find the source even though having looked through computer History and did more re-searching. Sitting here now with an itchy trigger finger (If that is politically correct) for a replacement.

The idea was if the NX80 ďspeedĒ was better than the Z90, given the trade-off between speed and 10-bit plus $500, tough decision, I would spring for the NX80. Shooting boats on the water needs both speed and capturing the range of highlights to darks.

Donít need an ENG cam to upload stuff to the internet, and donít need to shell out $500 for a minimal benefit, but do need another cam. Currently limping along with the AX53 which is a sweetheart of a handy cam, oh, and letís not forget the iPhone, (*!*) but things just arenít the same. These three cams are supposed to be the same except for major differences but sometimes there are subtle little differences that arenít advertised and donít necessarily pop up on a spec sheet. Any help with this elusive "speed" difference I thought I remembered would be appreciated. Would really hate to get one then discover I really should have got the other.

Craigís new S-Log thread was a good idea and Paulís dilemma (#87) may be the next shoe to drop.
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Old March 14th, 2018, 11:34 AM   #90
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Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Anderegg View Post
I performed an "I am bored" HLG test the other night...using a dark setting with a bright light in the middle. I shot clips in REC709 and HLG BT2020, imported into FCPX using the proper HDR library settings, but the highlight handling was basically identical. I have no idea what to do with these HLG files, as I have no way to view them on my HDR 4K TV set, and no way to playback 10 bit HDR out of my Macbook or PC. I see the new 2018 Samsung 4K TV's have HLG, maybe those sets would recognize these clips as HDR.

Paul
Most 4K TV's of any brand now support HLG, and not just those out in 2018.

Do you have one of these phones?:

The following devices have all confirmed that they support mobile HDR (and HLG) via the YouTube app:

Apple iPhone X
Apple iPhone 8
Apple iPhone 8 Plus
Apple iPad Pro (2nd-gen)
LG G6
LG V30
Razer Phone
Samsung Galaxy S8
Samsung Glaxy S8+
Samsung Galaxy Note 8
Samsung Galaxy S9
Samsung Galaxy S9+
Samsung Galaxy Tab S3
Samsung Galaxy Book
Sony Xperia XZ Premium
Sony Xperia XZ1
Sony Xperia XZ2
Sony Xperia XZ2 Compact

YouTube will automatically play an HLG video in HLG if the device is HLG compatible (it discovers this) and will also convert the HLG video to REC709 and play that version on all other viewing devices. How convenient is that?

It seems that if you distribute your video via YouTube you should always shoot in HLG...
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