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Sony Alpha Mirrorless and DSLR
Sony Alpha a7s: Full HD Recording in XAVC and 4:2:2 UHD 4K Output via HDMI.


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Old April 29th, 2014, 01:28 PM   #61
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Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?

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Do you really need experience with full frame? a gh3 has a 2x crop compared to full frame, so a 12mm is a 24mm on full frame, you just multiply by 2 to have a reference.
But if you have never owned or used a full frame 35mm stills camera extensively, then isn't it a bit ridiculous to bring it up? Unless you previously were using a 5D Mark II or other full frame still camera extensively on shoots and know what 16 or 24 or 50mm looks like on it and need to replicate what you are used to seeing, then you're not thinking in those terms and all, and are instead just tossing it out there just for the sake of being negative.
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Old April 29th, 2014, 05:29 PM   #62
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Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?

So, you seem to have extensive experience with m4/3 and full frame? Why don't you explain then what the differences are between a 12mm lens on a m4/3 camera (take the gh3 as example with it's 2x crop) and a 24mm lens on a full frame camera when it comes to field of view. Then we might learn something because at this moment you are only saying we don't know and that's not very positive either :).
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Old April 29th, 2014, 07:10 PM   #63
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Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?

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So, you seem to have extensive experience with m4/3 and full frame?
No, I have extensive experience with 1/2", m4/3, and APS-C.

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Why don't you explain then what the differences are between a 12mm lens on a m4/3 camera (take the gh3 as example with it's 2x crop) and a 24mm lens on a full frame camera when it comes to field of view.
I will be more explicit for you. If you have shot for years on a 7D, then you know how a 24mm lens looks on the APS-C sized sensor. You don't go to yourself, "Hmm, this room needs a good wide. I would shoot on a 15.6mm lens in full frame, so I would need a 24mm lens for my 7D in here."

No one does that (for some reason, APS-C gets a huge pass on this constant translation). Instead you would know what a 24mm lens looks like on your 7D and have a good guess as to whether it was wide enough, or if you needed to pull out an 11-16mm.

However, for m4/3, is constantly compared to full frame by people who don't use it and don't know instinctively what focal length they would need in the first place for full frame. What does 16mm look like in that room on a 5D Mark II? Do you know?
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Old April 30th, 2014, 01:47 AM   #64
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Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?

You are still not answering my question Gary and with a man of your expertise that should be an easy one, no? :)

So I"ll ask again: what is the differences between a 12mm lens on a m4/3 camera (take the gh3 as example with it's 2x crop) and a 24mm lens on a full frame camera when it comes to field of view.

I assumed it is the same, only you keep saying I shouldn't assume as I don't have experience with full frame and that's not an answer, so, what's the difference?
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Old April 30th, 2014, 07:24 AM   #65
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Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?

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You are still not answering my question Gary and with a man of your expertise that should be an easy one, no? :)
I'm sorry you still don't understand. I don't know how else to explain it to you.
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Old April 30th, 2014, 07:56 AM   #66
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Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?

Well, you reacted on James his comment that 12mm on M4/3 is 24mm on a full frame camera, if that would be a wrong assumption you did not correct it but instead you kept saying that if he or anyone who makes such a statement and has no experience with a full frame camera, it would be ridiculous to bring it up, because they don't know what they are talking about.

Then it appears you have not worked with full frame camera's either so why would I even listen to you? :D
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Old April 30th, 2014, 09:02 AM   #67
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Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?

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Then it appears you have not worked with full frame camera's either so why would I even listen to you?
So you disagree that those who, like me, don't work extensively with Full Frame cameras cannot instinctively visualize what the field of view of, say, a 24mm lens will look like at a specific location on, say, a 5D Mark III as opposed to a smaller sensor size that they routinely work with?

So if I have shot with a m4/3 camera for the last three years, and have used a 5D Mark III on a single job, then you disagree that I would not step into a room and say to myself, "Well, I would need 24mm on a 5D Mark III to get the wide shot that I want in here, so I would need a 12mm lens on the GH4 that I am using."

Do you disagree that people with little/no experience with Full Frame 35mm photography-sized sensors instinctively visualize the full frame field of view that you get on specific lenses?
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Old April 30th, 2014, 09:09 AM   #68
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Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?

This conversation is leading nowhere, got better things to do... :)
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Old April 30th, 2014, 09:33 AM   #69
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Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?

I have read somewhere that the a7s price is being announced tomorrow? Not sure if that was a reliable source, maybe a fun guessing game, see who gets closest, I say it will be 2600 dollar body only.
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Old April 30th, 2014, 09:35 AM   #70
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Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?

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This conversation is leading nowhere, got better things to do... :)
Oh, so you do agree that you think in terms of APS-C when picking a lens for your NEX-EA50?
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Old April 30th, 2014, 09:39 AM   #71
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Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?

I don't have a nex-ea50, take a shot at the a7s price instead, much more fun.
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Old April 30th, 2014, 09:41 AM   #72
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Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?

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take a shot at the a7s price instead, much more fun.
I will estimate $2999. Just enough to undercut 5D Mark III.
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Old April 30th, 2014, 11:48 AM   #73
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Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?

Gary, let me try and explain.

I've been using my 20mm 1.7 pancake lens on my panasonic gh2 for about two years now. I have a pretty good understanding from this time spent using it, if its going to be wide enough for a certain room or situation.

That said, I'm also well aware that the 20mm thats advertised on the lens, I'm actually seeing 40mm in camera due to the 2x crop factor.

I'm also well aware, due to the magic of the internet, that if I had a 20mm lens on say a full frame camera such as the 5d, that instead of having 40mm I would indeed have 20mm, which is significantly wider than 40mm.

So whenever my 20mm (effectively 40mm) lens isn't wide enough, I say to myself: "darn, wish I could get wider like those full frame folk". Which leads me to my comments about my struggles to get wide - as I know someone with a 5d can pick up a Canon EF 14mm f/2.8L II USM Lens and get a nice, wide and fast 14mm with autofocus and total electronic control, whereas the best I can do is get a 12mm 2.0 which turns into 24mm, or a some kind of tokina 11-16 plus speed booster combination that will get me there but without electronic controls.

I then remind myself that I do benefit in this due to the beauty of my solution costing a 1/4 of what the full frame system costs, albeit at a loss of light sensitivity.
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Old April 30th, 2014, 01:48 PM   #74
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Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?

You're looking too much into the crop factor/FF equivalent. Think in terms of FOV. better yet, use abels' tool AbelCine - Field of View Calculator

plug in the af100 for m43. then compare all you like.

Also, there is no literal crop factor on your 20mm lens, as it's designed for m43, if you use a 20mm EF lens, then the sensor is cropping the image circle. this is an important distinction because it accounts for differences in the lens quality at center vs edge.

Generally speaking, anything above 60 degrees is considered wide, 80-90degrees, very wide, 90+, superwide.

most folks in most cases don't need superwide. i've used aps-c and FF for several years, the majority of the time the 28 was my preferred wide on FF even though i had wider glass, and 18 on 1.6x is plenty wide for most situations. If i needed wider, yes i'd use the tokina 12-24 1.6x lens, but i'd say i use that lens maybe 5-10% of the time

But again, everything comes down to what you're actually shooting... it sounds like you're basing your thoughts off of full frame envy(no slight intended) instead of looking critically at your situation and figuring out what you actually need for what you have. f4 may be half the light of f2.8, but if you're really in that tight of a space, literally just a few watts of light would bridge and surpass that gap.

You do own some lights, yes?
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Old May 1st, 2014, 06:41 AM   #75
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Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?

It's not just the Field of View that must be considered when comparing Full Frame vs Micro Four Third. While a 12mm on MFT has similar FoV to 24mm on FF to get the same Depth of Field the MFT lens will need to be two stops wider & it is in fact impossible for the MFT to match the FF DoF if the aperture on the FF is less than F/4 as there is no 12mm MFT lens available with an aperture greater than F/2..
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