Pdw-700, pdw-800, pmw-350 - Page 2 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony ENG / EFP Shoulder Mounts

Sony ENG / EFP Shoulder Mounts
Sony PDW-F800, PDW-700, PDW-850, PXW-X500 (XDCAM HD) and PMW-400, PMW-320 (XDCAM EX).


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old March 11th, 2010, 02:02 PM   #16
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK
Posts: 4,957
I don't think the highlight situation is a sensor limitation but more of a processing issue. The aperture setting really is doing strange things! But as the processing is all software driven it is possible that this could be improved or changed. Turning Aperture off really cleans up the highlights.

Both cameras appear to have the same dynamic range, the way the highlights are handled is different between the two cameras and personally I like the 350 look.
__________________
Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com
Alister Chapman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2010, 02:14 PM   #17
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 3,864
Thanks for your post and thoughts Alister. But it is good to agree to disagree. I don't think the pictures are that close between the 350 and 800. But maybe the 800 is producing a better picture then the 700 but I can't see how.
__________________
Paul Cronin
www.paulcroninstudios.com
Paul Cronin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2010, 03:58 PM   #18
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK
Posts: 4,957
Did you see the frame grabs from my camera shootout:

XDCAM-USER.com 6 Camera Shootout: Panasonic 3700, 301, 200, Sony 700, 350, EX3
__________________
Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com
Alister Chapman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2010, 04:05 PM   #19
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 3,864
Yes I did.

What I am seeing with our test, I trusting since I am seeing it on a large corrected monitor while shooting and in post.
__________________
Paul Cronin
www.paulcroninstudios.com
Paul Cronin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2010, 06:13 PM   #20
Vortex Media
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New England, USA
Posts: 2,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alister Chapman View Post
Did you see the frame grabs from my camera shootout:
XDCAM-USER.com 6 Camera Shootout: Panasonic 3700, 301, 200, Sony 700, 350, EX3
I did, and I think the 700 and 350 match very closely in your test. The problem is, they both look equally bad. Maybe "bad" is a bit harsh, but the camera's certainly don't look as good as they can. If you want a camera that may not look so great, then either one will do the job right out of the box. As will all the other cameras in the test.

I quote from your test:
"IT IS IMPORTANT to consider that the cameras were all set to default and exposed using a 50% grey card. This may or may not be the the optimum exposure and I am sure all the cameras could have been made to perform better with some picture tweaks, however this was felt to be the fairest way to shoot the scene given the time restrictions."

Okay, now that we know that, then the rest of the testing is pointless because why does anyone care how a camera looks out of the box -- plus without the optimal expsoure. That's like testing a Steinway against a piano that cost half as much -- but neither have been tuned yet. Guess what? They would both sound equally bad.

The kind of testing that Paul and I have been doing is to try to get the best look we can on both cameras. When you do that kind of testing, the 350 seems to fall woefully short of the mark set by the F800. That's what we've seen with our own eyes on a variety of shots, with a variety of paint settings. I trust that assessment more than looking at a single freeze frame from cameras that have not been setup properly.

When the ASC does their HD camera shootouts they assign an operator to each camera who's job it is to get the best possible look the camera is capable of . . . because no one's going to use it out of the box on the default settings. That's the way to test cameras.

Take the cameras out in the real world and compare them. If I've learned anything from attending NAB over 20 times it's that almost any camera can look pretty good on a little studio set.

Just me 2 cents.
__________________
Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/
Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools
Doug Jensen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2010, 07:15 PM   #21
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 1,866
If you've done your homework, show the work!
Tom Roper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2010, 09:01 PM   #22
Vortex Media
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New England, USA
Posts: 2,480
Tom,

Email me your best scene file. The actual data file, please, do not just send a list of the settings. I'm not going to program them by hand.

If Paul and I can find the time to get together again, we'll use your best file in the EX350 up against my favorite settings for the F800. Then you can decide for youself. Perhaps Paul and I have gotten it all wrong. I'll even test it up against my EX1, because in our previous tests the EX1 was also better than the EX350. I'll actually post real 1080P video, shot on-location, at Vimeo instead of a couple of freeze frames.
__________________
Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/
Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools
Doug Jensen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2010, 12:44 AM   #23
Telecam Films
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Washington DC
Posts: 723
I am a bit puzzled by the "DWV" Gamma curve on the PMW-350. I kind of like it, It yields nice blacks and is well saturated but the latitude seems very low, too contrasty.

Anyone using it?

T.
__________________
Thierry Humeau, DoP
Télécam Films
www.telecamfilms.com
Thierry Humeau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2010, 01:55 AM   #24
Major Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NE of London, England
Posts: 788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Jensen View Post
I'll even test it up against my EX1, because in our previous tests the EX1 was also better than the EX350.
Really? In what ways?

Very interested in your results as I use all of these cameras.
__________________
www.mikemarriage.com
Mike Marriage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2010, 01:56 AM   #25
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK
Posts: 4,957
Setting up each camera individually using one persons preferred settings is equally flawed as what looks right or best to one person may not please the next person. Camera setup is very subjective. Most of what you changing is only affecting the look of the image and not the actual performance of the camera.

I agree that Sony's cameras don't look good out of the box, but I could have tweaked and tuned them to a detail level I like (after all there is no standard for detail settings) and chosen a gamma curve or knee that I like or think is best. But define "best", what is best? We know the hypergammas give good dynamic range, but not everyone likes the flat pictures produced due to the compressed highlights and the Sony gammas are different to the Panasonic gammas. What might be suitable for one production may not be suitable for the next. I spent the day on Wednesday at the London Film School setting up cameras for a lighting workshop. As we were working in a controlled lighting setup we used a standard gamma with no knee as this gave the best pictures in the 8 stop lighting range of the set. In this scenario this was decided as the optimum setup and the cameras produced gorgeous pictures that would grade extremely well, but it's not a setup I would use for exteriors.

Yes we could have spent a day setting up each camera, but then we would still have to include the caveat that the cameras were set up according to one persons individual taste.
However you do these kinds of tests there will be compromises. Our shootout was done primarily to generate media sets for testing the various workflows, but it did also highlight some strengths and weaknesses in the cameras tested. As many people won't ever delve into a cameras setup, for many it is very relevant to see the out of the box image.

I'd rather use frame grabs to judge image quality than video clips on Vimeo. At least 1:1 uncompressed frame grabs don't add extra compression artifacts, change the colour space, resolution, quantization etc. How can you compare a 4:2:2 image with a 4:2:0 image using only a 4:2:0 codec?
__________________
Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

Last edited by Alister Chapman; March 12th, 2010 at 02:45 AM.
Alister Chapman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2010, 03:33 AM   #26
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 1,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Jensen View Post
Tom,

Email me your best scene file. The actual data file, please, do not just send a list of the settings. I'm not going to program them by hand.

If Paul and I can find the time to get together again, we'll use your best file in the EX350 up against my favorite settings for the F800. Then you can decide for youself. Perhaps Paul and I have gotten it all wrong. I'll even test it up against my EX1, because in our previous tests the EX1 was also better than the EX350. I'll actually post real 1080P video, shot on-location, at Vimeo instead of a couple of freeze frames.
Not so fast. You've done all the testing already. What did you test? Let's see the data points you have now.
Tom Roper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2010, 06:06 AM   #27
Vortex Media
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New England, USA
Posts: 2,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alister Chapman View Post
Setting up each camera individually using one persons preferred settings is equally flawed as what looks right or best to one person may not please the next person.
Alister, I can understand your point of view, I just happen to disagree with that approach. Yeah, I may not agree with the settings somebody else has chosen, but at least I'm not listening to an untuned piano that I already know doesn't sound good. As for comparing moving video or freeze frames, well we'll have to disagree on that. Neiter is ideal, but I'm not judging compression issues. Paint settings hold up pretty good on Vimeo. If they didn't, why are we even wasting our time worrying about them?
__________________
Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/
Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools
Doug Jensen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2010, 06:17 AM   #28
Vortex Media
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New England, USA
Posts: 2,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
Not so fast. You've done all the testing already. What did you test? Let's see the data points you have now.
Tom, is there some reason why you think I owe you something? You're lucky I'm willing to do what I have offered to do. I don't own the EX350, I'm not thinking about buying an EX350, and I have no financial interest in which camera other people choose. I have merely been helping Paul evaluate his camera. If you have a problem with me voicing my evaluation without showing examples, too bad. Hey, I have an idea, why don't you spend half your day shooting, editing, and uploading something just for me?

As Alister pointed out, you can't trust someone else's scene files. So it's a waste of time for me to test the EX350 without having YOUR settings. No matter what the results are, you'd just say that I didn't have the right settings. For all I know, your settings may unlock the secrets of the camera and have it looking like an F35.

I've made my offer, and if you don't send the file this morning, then I'll assume you're not interested in a true comparison today.

FYI, the shooting conidtions are likely to be overcast, so choose your file accordiingly.
__________________
Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/
Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools
Doug Jensen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2010, 07:01 AM   #29
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 3,864
Alister, Tom,

We are doing this test to choose what WE think is the best setting for the 350. And to really understand the test you need to be standing in front of the corrected monitor when we are shooting. Not view it on the web, Doug is offering that to be helpful and give you an idea of what we are doing. As Doug said if you don’t like that you will say we are using the wrong setting and doing it wrong. We are not doing this for your setting we are doing this for our settings!

I would never judge a cameras performance by a still only. I need to see motion I am shooting video with motion and at times fast motion. Also what really matters is what our clients think and from what I have seen with the 350 clients need better, and we are working on how we can give them a better picture.

As for std factory setting I would never shoot that and give it to a client. You are right Alister it is all personal taste but that is what brings out the creative part of shooting. I would rather give a client a Natural looking picture from an experienced shooter I don’t know then a std setting from the factory. So why would I test with anything but what I would send out. The other is a waste of my time.

We are trying to help 350 users here not stir it up. And let me tell you Doug knows what he is doing and I feel lucky to have him helping me. So as I said in an earlier post agree to disagree but lets do it where we all move forward like WE are trying to do with this test!
__________________
Paul Cronin
www.paulcroninstudios.com
Paul Cronin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2010, 09:49 AM   #30
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 1,866
Doug,

You said that with factory settings the PDW700 and PMW350 were equally bad, and from there with careful tuning they get farther apart as the F800 morphs into a Steinway and the EX350 turns into a sub-EX1. I don't mind opinions like this at all except when ad-hoc field use like this is characterized as "testing" to argue against reasoned baselines, which Alister put forth to level the field in his 6 cam test. In lieu of factory settings, you got challenged to share some of those observations you based your testing on, what gamma, what exposure, what settings, and instead you countered with an insincere offer of unsolicited help.

For what it's worth Doug, I for one have never said a word (until now) about the PDW700 or F800. I am not at all surprised that for the extra premium the 700 and 800 command, there would be tangible image quality benefits.
Tom Roper is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony ENG / EFP Shoulder Mounts

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:44 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network