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Old March 6th, 2013, 10:25 AM   #31
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Re: Sony PMW Camera - Editing Workflow

Not heard of lightworks, I'll have a look at the link, thanks.

Doug, for my clients it's a fully edited finished item, so a DVD is something they can watch and copy easily.

Thanks for the clarification re: QuickTime. Maybe what I read was wrong about loss of quality when exporting from a Mac to a DVD. This was a big concern when i read this. Maybe they didn't have it set up right - who knows?
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Old March 6th, 2013, 10:37 AM   #32
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Re: Sony PMW Camera - Editing Workflow

Well, just to be clear, a DVD is obviously going to be a lot lower quality than the original camera footage. But that's because of the limitations of DVD My point is that it has nothing at all to do with pros and cons of Quicktime.

If you want to give your clients an excellent finished product that is easy to view on a regular TV, then give them a Blu-ray version. You can buy a Blu-ray player these days for about $50 and the quality is excellent.
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Old March 6th, 2013, 10:58 AM   #33
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Re: Sony PMW Camera - Editing Workflow

Good point. Thanks.
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Old March 6th, 2013, 03:05 PM   #34
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Re: Sony PMW Camera - Editing Workflow

Brian, the Lightworks software is fantastic value!

It would be interesting to hear your thoughts as a user (I take it that you are?) as to what it's like to use and what other system you think it's similar to, etc (maybe none at all).

Surprised I've not heard of it before!

Doug, besides blue ray DVD, do you (or others) export to SDHC as well? Just wondering as it's easy for clients to play via their computer and then it can be copied in many ways. Just a thought...
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Old March 6th, 2013, 03:32 PM   #35
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Re: Sony PMW Camera - Editing Workflow

I've never delivered a finished edited production on any kind of memory card before, nor would I recommend it. Sometimes I'll deliver either a hard drive or an XDCAM optical disc, but never a memory card. Sometimes the client wants it posted on Vimeo. Sometimes they want it FTP'd to them. Again, it all comes down to what the client specifies or what I recommend to them based on their unique needs.
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Old March 6th, 2013, 04:29 PM   #36
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Re: Sony PMW Camera - Editing Workflow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Langdon View Post
... besides blue ray DVD, do you (or others) export to SDHC as well? Just wondering as it's easy for clients to play via their computer and then it can be copied in many ways.
As one of the "or others", I'm noticing a very recent trend (at least in my neck of the woods) to deliver on a USB stick. Just over the past month or two. Most modern blu-ray players have a USB port in the front to insert and play movies from a USB stick. And the newer (large widescreen) TVs have a USB port in the side or back and the TV will play the 1080p movie without any need for an external player.

I've had two recent jobs calling for USB stick delivery: one asked for delivery in SD DVDs plus the 1080p version in .mp4 on a USB stick, the other as a 1080p upload to their YouTube channel plus the 1080p .mp4 movie on a USB stick. With the latter job, the USB was put into the side of a large TV on the client's wall and played/displayed from there. (And, by the way, this really showed what a great final image and resolution you can get from the EX1R. Especially if you use Doug's Picture Profile!)

I don't recommend using FCP X or Compressor to make a 1080p .mp4 if you're playing it directly from the TV set. I found that it would start stuttering about 2 minutes in. When I used Adobe Media Encoder (using the same bitrate settings as the Apple applications), it gave me a file of about half the size (I have no idea why, given they seemed to have the same bitrate settings!) and it plays perfectly on all players plus looks spectacular.

Of course, you could put them on SDHC cards if you wanted to, instead of USB sticks, but I would imagine that the sticks would be more robust, plus I'm not sure whether blu-ray players have the card slots or not.

But it all depends on what the individual client requests for final delivery.
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Old March 6th, 2013, 04:39 PM   #37
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Re: Sony PMW Camera - Editing Workflow

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Originally Posted by Kevin Langdon View Post
Doug, besides blue ray DVD, do you (or others) export to SDHC as well? Just wondering as it's easy for clients to play via their computer and then it can be copied in many ways. Just a thought...
This is what i was referring to earlier. With the XDCAM EX codec and the correct software it's quite feasible to lay an edited sequence back to an SDHC card as if it is a compatible camera recording.

Would it be a good idea? The answer must be "it depends". Advantages would include that it is compatible with NLEs - if they handle importing XDCAM EX from the camera, they'll handle such sequences. If "smart render" is used there is no recoding of most of the footage, only a few frames in the GOP around edit points, or when grading, effects etc are done. It maintains full HD quality, and enables you to give any client physical media with an HD recording. And compared to a harddrive, an SDHC card is cheap. Same when compared to an XDCAM disc (depending on size) and it doesn't need any client to have a XDCAM player - just an SD card slot.

Disadvantages? Check any client can handle it. Have they got the neccessary software to enable them to play it? DVDs are obviously the simplest media, and easiest to find players for - but by definition are standard definition. If you want to stay HD, you need to make a Blu-Ray (and the client needs a Blu-Ray player!), though I believe it is possible to author a limited length HD recording on a standard DVD disc, though it will need a Blu-Ray player for replay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Knaggs
Of course, you could put them on SDHC cards if you wanted to, instead of USB sticks, but ...........
A possible advantage of SDHC card is if you lay it down in the original XDCAM file format, it can be replayed in a camera or XDCAM player the same as an original camera clip. That may or not be useful. (It is to me.)
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But it all depends on what the individual client requests for final delivery.
Exactly.
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Old March 6th, 2013, 04:53 PM   #38
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Re: Sony PMW Camera - Editing Workflow

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Originally Posted by Kevin Langdon View Post
Brian, the Lightworks software is fantastic value!

It would be interesting to hear your thoughts as a user (I take it that you are?) as to what it's like to use and what other system you think it's similar to, etc (maybe none at all).
Lightworks is one of the original NLEs, it has a console that replicates how film editors used the Steenbeck controller. That's the fastest way to use Lightworks, however, there are also a number methods for editing with Lightworks using a mouse and keyboard.

That's the big thing about it, it's very flexible and allows you to work the way you want to work. However, you do need to learn its little ways, what seems strange at first you discover is very sensible. You need to invest a bit of time, but it has a simple logic.

You won't be feel too put off coming from either AVID or FCP, but the interface is different and you can arrange the layout the way you like for the task you're doing. The fact that it's not rigid does put some people off at first.

There is a Lightworks keyboard that works better with the program than the AVID or FCP keyboards, although you have the option of using use these keyboards. Instead of marking in and out, you "mark and park" the mark is the "in" and where you park is automatically taken as the out point - that works in either direction. It autosaves as you work, so you don't lose anything.

Training materials are at an early stage, but there are video tutorials and lots of on line help at their forum. If you have a question chances are you'll have an answer very quickly. The developers keep an eye on the forum as well and sometimes new features get put into the next build within hours of a suggestion.

There are user guides as well, but currently no third party how to books, although I hear someone is writing one. I gather there is a certificated training scheme starting later in the year. Editshare, who now own Lightworks, have a long background in post production.

Currently it's only Windows, although the LINUX version is in public beta and the Mac version is being previewed at NAB.

You can use and experiment with the free version for as long as you like. The Pro version has a wider range of codec and other features.

Last edited by Brian Drysdale; March 6th, 2013 at 06:21 PM.
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Old March 8th, 2013, 12:06 PM   #39
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Re: Sony PMW Camera - Editing Workflow

One issue I've run into with USB thumb drives (sticks) is that sometimes the data transfer rates to write to them can be dreadfully slow. (Not to say that all thumb drives are slow, but they don't have speed ratings printed on them -- and when a client brings one and asks you to transfer 20 or 30GB of data onto it, it can really push the envelope at the end of the day.) Obviously not as big an issue if you're outputting a more compressed .mp4 file or a shorter piece. But at least with SDHC cards or hard drives you have a pretty good idea what the transfer speeds will be before you start.
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Old March 12th, 2013, 09:01 PM   #40
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Re: Sony PMW Camera - Editing Workflow

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Kevin,

I can't answer all your questions, but I'll quickly give you a few words of advice:

1) Forget about FCP. Everyone I know who used to use it is moving to something else. I have recently moved to Premiere CS6, and although there are some features I miss from FCP, overall it is a much better program and Adobe is more committed to the future of professional editing than Apple. Plus the integration with the rest of the Adobe suite (Photoshop, After Effects, Bridge, Encoder, Illustrator, etc.) is excellent. Avid is also an option, but I think you'd be happier with Adobe. If you want to go with Avid I have an unopened Symphony 6 box sitting on my shelf I will sell you cheap. :-)

2) What you deliver to a client, depends entirely on the client. It could be anything from a DVD, Blu-ray, hard drive, FTP, an XDCAM optical disc, or any other device that can hold computer files. I suppose there are still people who output to tape. My favorite deliverable is XDCAM optical discs, but the client must have a device to read it. You'd have to find out from your client BEFORE you even begin production what they expect as a deliverable.

3) Use the camera's UDF mode so you can shoot at 50Mbps. And don't ever use SDHC cards. I don't know if the 500 is compatible with XQD cards yet, but if it is, that is the way to go. The new PMW-200/160/100 cameras can use XQD cards for all video formats (including UDF) and they are a fraction of the price of SxS cards.

Hope that helps point you in the right direction.
Well my workflow and migration to it about 18 month ago are the following and i do respect Doug Jensen
but i disagree with is POV on FCP X at least for me it is a great way to produce great videos.

Before i was using Final Cut Studio 3 (FCP 7,DVD Pro 4,Motion 4,Compressor 3,Soundtrack Pro,Color)
but i was only using mostly FCP 7,Motion 4 and Compressor 3.

The migration take about 3 Month with the help of the tutorials from Larry Jordan and also Ripple Training.
I deliver mostly Blu-Ray , a few DVD and now think about Web from Vimeo pay-per-view Services.

I shoot using XDCAM EX and now XDCAM HD MPEG HD 4:2:2 on SxS Sony Cards only using the Sony
PMW-200 and strongly suggest you buy the Doug Jensen tutorial on the PMW-100,150.200 XDCAM HD MPEG HD 4:2:2 Camcorders that will save you time and get the best from those camcorders.

I ingest all my shooting using Sony Content Browser now at 2.0.1 using Sony Advanced Pack as the serial number licence who still valid (but you can get a free licence if you register and download before june 2013 ... so do-it now ).

All editing done in FCP X , a few FX using Motion 5 , Output DVD or Blu-Ray or the Web using Compressor 4 since i only need Transitions,Titling, Chapters Markers on my productions.

I have also Davinci Resolve Lite 9.1.1 with tutorials but still have not use-it for the moments.

I i was an hollywood guys probably i will jump on Autodesk Smoke 2013 (Mac Only Software).

I talk to many users of Adobe suite who is a great suite but very few use all the softwares included,
at least in the one man band Production ( you can earn a living using only Photoshop or After Effects).

If i may without offending anybody i would say many one man band if on the PC side could use Sony Vegas Pro 12 not because Adobe is bad maybe just Overkill and expensive for what they need.
I cant recommend Avid because is even more expensive and mostly for Broadcast or Hollywood.

Hope i have not light a fire thats only my humble opinion of what have work for me.
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Old March 15th, 2013, 02:34 AM   #41
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Re: Sony PMW Camera - Editing Workflow

I would never, ever use a SDHC-card as a final product to deliver to anyone. These cards are way too flimsy and vulnerable for that purpose. I even split one in two with my finger nail when trying to remove it from my GoPro camera. My pro still camera's all use the much sturdier Compact Flash cards and believe me: that is no coincidence...
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Old March 15th, 2013, 08:29 AM   #42
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Re: Sony PMW Camera - Editing Workflow

I also split an SDHC card in two, but it happened when I was putting it into a reader. All footage lost. SDHC cards are for consumers, not for professional applications.
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Old March 15th, 2013, 12:36 PM   #43
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Re: Sony PMW Camera - Editing Workflow

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I would never, ever use a SDHC-card as a final product to deliver to anyone. These cards are way too flimsy and vulnerable for that purpose. I even split one in two with my finger nail when trying to remove it from my GoPro camera. My pro still camera's all use the much sturdier Compact Flash cards and believe me: that is no coincidence...
A year or so ago I may have agreed with that - now I'm not so sure.

SD cards do have two advantages over CF - a "lock" switch and flat contacts, not pins and socket. I find it hard to believe, but I have heard a few recent stories of pins on CF connectors getting bent due to forceful insertion of the cards the wrong way round.... (Yes, I know, I know.....!)

Point is that they are so cheap that you could supply two copies of material on two cards, they can always be reused when the client has the material where they want it. And is anything ever fully secure? I've never previously heard tales of SD cards splitting before - but I have heard of hard drive failures - especially if they get dropped!
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Old March 15th, 2013, 05:15 PM   #44
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Re: Sony PMW Camera - Editing Workflow

I've made over 30.000 shots on CF-cards over more than 10 years and I never saw one that was physically damaged. Moreover, it is virtually impossible to insert a CF-card the wrong way round in a professional camera, because there is a notch preventing that.

As Doug points out: SD(HC) is for (careful) consumers, not for pro use. I hate to use it in my GoPro, and so I hate it even more that in the GoPro 3 it's a Micro SD... It's gonna be one of the reasons I'll be looking for other brands if I want to replace my first Hero cam.
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