XDCAM HD and Green Screen

[Timothy M Tress]

Disclaimer: I do not own, nor have I ever used any XDCAM HD products. But I am considering purchasing the 350 later this year.

My question is: how well does it work for doing green screen? Is it 4:2:2? Is that even a reasonable question?

Thanks

[Michael Devlin]

The material recorded to disc is 4:2:0 (as is HDV), which is not ideal for green screen. The PDW-F350 does have an HDSDI output which is 4:2:2, but since the imager captures 4:2:0 which is then upconverted, you still do not really have 4:2:2. We have some sample green screen stuff on our website comparing direct HDSDI uncompressed capture from the XL H1 versus the F350 ( www.redhawk-development.com see the features page).

You can use either camera for green screen, but the XL H1 (which seems to be a true 4:2:2 HDSDI for uncompressed capture, but not the recorded HDV) pulls a cleaner matte with much less work. The XDCAM HD has much better lattitude than the XL H1, better ergonomics, and a better workflow. However I would give the nod to the XL H1 for green screen over the F350, if you are capturing uncompressed HDSDI. If you are planning to use the in-camera recorder (tape or firestore for the XLH1, Sony Proffesional Disc for the XDCAM HD) then the 35Mbs XDCAM HD would be better than the HDV, of course.

[Scott Aston]

There is a article reviewing the F350 from a company that does music video in Nashville, TN. The reviewer says that they work with the F900 and Varicam quite often, and were a bit skeptical about the new Sony XDCAM-HD offerings and the 4:2:0 color space. However after putting the F350 through it's many paces, they went on record to say that only does the F350 key better than the Varicam for green screen work, but achieves better results in everything..resolution...ergonimics... LCD..., overall picture quality. I have yet to see the footage of the F350 on a Plasma or LCD, but I can't wait to!

[David Mintzer]

I just read the article---There are several issues that Tim Duncan kind of glosses over----One being the fact that in order ot make the camera hum, you really have to spend some big bucks for a high end HD lens, be it a 1/2" or 2/3"--so you have already added something like 13,000-25,000 dollars onto the cost of the camera. The cost of the deck is about 15,000 bucks.

You are looking at well over 50,000 dollars to get into the HDCAM game---and at a 1/2" chip level.

[Simon Wyndham]

David, remember that as a indy operator, you don't need to get the deck. The camera functions perfectly on its own with non of the worry of head wear/fragility of tape cameras in that role.

Also, don't forget the 330 with lens package. A lot of people go on about the 350, but unless you need the SDI out (which suffers from the limitations mentioned earlier), or you have to have the variable framerate, the lower 330 model produces exactly the same quality picture and has all of the same menu adjustments etc.

The 330 package with lens looks to be amazingly good value. Okay, it isn't the best lens in the world, but it gets you in the game and can be upgraded later.

[David Mintzer]

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

David, remember that as a indy operator, you don't need to get the deck. The camera functions perfectly on its own with non of the worry of head wear/fragility of tape cameras in that role.

Also, don't forget the 330 with lens package. A lot of people go on about the 350, but unless you need the SDI out (which suffers from the limitations mentioned earlier), or you have to have the variable framerate, the lower 330 model produces exactly the same quality picture and has all of the same menu adjustments etc.

The 330 package with lens looks to be amazingly good value. Okay, it isn't the best lens in the world, but it gets you in the game and can be upgraded later.

Simon, I agree--you can use the camera for transfers---By the way, is the 330 package exclusive to Europe. I haven't seen it advertised in the States---for instance, I just got B&H's most recent catalog and they show both cameras without lens---

[Scott Aston]

Originally Posted by David Mintzer

I just read the article---There are several issues that Tim Duncan kind of glosses over----One being the fact that in order ot make the camera hum, you really have to spend some big bucks for a high end HD lens, be it a 1/2" or 2/3"--so you have already added something like 13,000-25,000 dollars onto the cost of the camera. The cost of the deck is about 15,000 bucks.

You are looking at well over 50,000 dollars to get into the HDCAM game---and at a 1/2" chip level.

Without the cost of the deck, to really hum as you put it, is below 40k..still seems like a lot of jack for 1/2" CCD's. So how much of that article do you believe to be reality? Because a varicam killer if you will is a bargain at sub 40k.

Simon you used the F330 on your music video didn't you? Do you think that either XDCAM-HD's can deliver a lets say a Discover HD quality picture?

[David Mintzer]

I have to be honest on this one---Tim Duncan is a bright guy but I don't think he has the experience with the XDCAM line and cameras in general, that Simon has. I think Simon has given some very measured reviews of the camera and has pretty much pointed out its strenghts and weaknesses. What I found tempting about the camera is that is seemed to be a perfect transitional tool---you could shoot DVCAM or HD. I guess you could throw an SD lens on the camera and rent an HD lens when you need it. Anyhow, I have to get down to my local dealer to handle the thing---I was impressed with Simon's video.

[Scott Aston]

Tim Duncan..what the heck does he know about HD anyway...but he is the best in the business at posting his man up in the paint.

I too have to go see these XDCAM's in person. I think that Infocom is coming to Orlando next month and I know the GV Infinity will have a working demo there, and I am hoping that Sony will have all of their HD offerings to see touch and feel as well.

[David Mintzer]

He might not be posting up much more in 2006---close game.

[Simon Wyndham]

Simon you used the F330 on your music video didn't you? Do you think that either XDCAM-HD's can deliver a lets say a Discover HD quality picture?

Yep. There is another thread here where someone asked the same question. Discovery should have announced at NAB via Sony that they accept XDCAM HD as an unrestricted shooting and delivery format as long as the 35mb/s mode is used. Maybe the announcement managed to slip under the radar. But when I spoke to the XDCAM product manager over here when I reviewed the camera they were very proud of this announcement.

Both XDCAM HD cameras create exactly the same quality picture. If you have no need for SDI out, or variable framerates, then the 330 will do a very good job.

The noise issue and sensitivity with the cameras does create a reservation in my mind. Although my experiences of using showed that it wasn't too much of an issue. It only raises its head when gain is used. I would like to try some slow shutter experiements to see if any resolution is lost.

At the end of the day between umming and ahhing about the possibilities of Red, I do still have a temptation to go for an XDCAM HD. I just wish I had a crystal ball to see what Sony might be planning regarding any 2/3" version!

[David Mintzer]

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

Yep. There is another thread here where someone asked the same question. Discovery should have announced at NAB via Sony that they accept XDCAM HD as an unrestricted shooting and delivery format as long as the 35mb/s mode is used. Maybe the announcement managed to slip under the radar. But when I spoke to the XDCAM product manager over here when I reviewed the camera they were very proud of this announcement.

Both XDCAM HD cameras create exactly the same quality picture. If you have no need for SDI out, or variable framerates, then the 330 will do a very good job.

The noise issue and sensitivity with the cameras does create a reservation in my mind. Although my experiences of using showed that it wasn't too much of an issue. It only raises its head when gain is used. I would like to try some slow shutter experiements to see if any resolution is lost.

At the end of the day between umming and ahhing about the possibilities of Red, I do still have a temptation to go for an XDCAM HD. I just wish I had a crystal ball to see what Sony might be planning regarding any 2/3" version!

Simon, I just bought a X1U for a second HDV camera, and I am seriously considering buying the 330 as my primary camera. My idea is to use it as a transitional camera---as DV moves over to HD---I am seriously thinking about getting a good 1/2" SD lens (do you have any recommendations?) and renting the HD lens as needed. As far as the 2/3 inch version goes----I figure we will be looking at 35--40,000 for the basic camera----business is good but not that good. In fact, I see that Panasonic is about to release their HD version of the SDX900-----2/3 chips, 24fp etc. They are expecting it to cost about 26,000 US-------. Anyhow, its a tough time to figure out what direction to go in---things are moving very fast.

[Scott Aston]

Originally Posted by David Mintzer

Simon, I just bought a X1U for a second HDV camera, and I am seriously considering buying the 330 as my primary camera. My idea is to use it as a transitional camera---as DV moves over to HD---I am seriously thinking about getting a good 1/2" SD lens (do you have any recommendations?) and renting the HD lens as needed. As far as the 2/3 inch version goes----I figure we will be looking at 35--40,000 for the basic camera----business is good but not that good. In fact, I see that Panasonic is about to release their HD version of the SDX900-----2/3 chips, 24fp etc. They are expecting it to cost about 26,000 US-------. Anyhow, its a tough time to figure out what direction to go in---things are moving very fast.

I here you David..I am in the same situation. My business can't warrant a $50-$60 thousand HD purchase, and in reality the HD industry being so new, one wonders what is coming out (price vs features) in the short years to come. The F330 or 350 seems like a really good way to shoot quality HD now and pay for the camera quickly, and when camera's like RED come into the mainstream, upgrade then. By the way, I have given serious consideration to the Panasonic HDX-900, however it is a taped based camera, which means buying a deck. Also if you plan to produce for Discovery Channel etc. it's to my understanding that they only accept programs delivered on HDCAM. I think it makes more sense to go with the Sony (no deck) and take a disk to a post house and do a HDCAM master.

[David Mintzer]

Yes Scott---Besides the reason you mentioned, I like the idea that the 330 will allow me to shoot in DV and edit very easily---Most people are still asking for standard def-----Anyhow, let us know what you decide to do----