Detail Levels at DVinfo.net

Emanuel Altenburger · March 29th, 2007, 03:47 AM

Hello,

I´ve posted something concerning Detail level some weeks ago. Unfortunately I couldn´t find my thread any more:-)
Anyway, I just wanted to ask, whether anybody here pushes the details into + and if yes how much? I´ve done some shots with +50 and even more and especially in wide angles the image appears to be much clearer. I noticed some issues of washed out images in the wide angle, even when using f4 and wonderful wheather and wonderful light. I´ve now created a scene file with a bit more detail level and it looks brilliant. Anyway, I´m curious whether anybody here has tried that out as well? If yes, what´s your experience with this - especially when editing together a detail level + with a detail level 0 image?

I will upload some images of shots I´ve done with detail 0 and detail+ as soon as I´m home again. I did some test shots of the same image and would love to hear your thoughts!

Thanks a lot,
Emanuel

Uli Mors · April 2nd, 2007, 01:12 AM

Hi Emanuel,

(and greetings from germany)

with all respect to the threads and opinions in this forum - why dont you rely just on your eye? If the subject you´re on and the picture you are heading for succeeds by adding some + detail -- go for it.

When matching up some cams (VX2000-> Panasonic DVC200) I have to push much detail into some shots to "fake" the general sharpness of the dvc200... and cut those footages together.

Anyway, too high gain settings can look quite distracting if too much details (grass, buildings , whatever) are in the frame.

Have a good monitor hooked up to your cam and decide - or prepare two scene files to switch between a "++ detailed" and a "neutral detail" setting.

ULI

Emanuel Altenburger · April 2nd, 2007, 04:38 AM

Well yes, that´s what I´m trying and I kind of like the extra bit of sharpness. I just wanted to ask forum members, whether anybody has experienced some sort of a negative situation when pushing the details up to high ... :-)

Scot Olson · April 2nd, 2007, 10:32 AM

I tend to run the detail in the minus range, -20 is my usual starting point. I think the camera looks sharp without plus detail. That said, after reading your enthusiasm, I will give max detail a look on a few shots and try and remember to report back to you.

The 2 questions I would have for you are: What lens are you using? And what monitor are you using to evaluate the look on?

Scot

Emanuel Altenburger · April 2nd, 2007, 11:29 AM

hello,

when I saw that pushing the details looked really nice I used a Sony HD monitor on set. I think in that case it was the LMD-9050. As said I think that pushing the details into + is not necessary when shooting normal angles. But with shooting wider angles I thought it just looks a bit better.

btw i wasn´t using detail max setting, but detail +50 and sometimes detail +80.

Nate Weaver · April 2nd, 2007, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel Altenburger

hello,

when I saw that pushing the details looked really nice I used a Sony HD monitor on set. I think in that case it was the LMD-9050. As said I think that pushing the details into + is not necessary when shooting normal angles. But with shooting wider angles I thought it just looks a bit better.

btw i wasn´t using detail max setting, but detail +50 and sometimes detail +80.

I don't think the 9050 is really showing enough of what's happening to your image when you do that...

Scot Olson · April 2nd, 2007, 04:04 PM

I will second Nates' opinion. The 9050 is not large enough and does not have enough resolution to make accurate judgments on detail level.

Emanuel Altenburger · April 2nd, 2007, 04:29 PM

hello,

Sorry Nate and Scot, I thought you were asking which monitor I was using on location. I somehow got that wrong, sorry.
As said in another thread (which unfortunately I couldn´t find any more;-)
I hooked my camcorder to a really nice and I think quite expensive HD screen (which unfortunately doesn´t belong to me:-) after the shoot and saw that there definitely was a huge difference which I somehow liked a bit. The TV was set correctly, the postproduction house told me. The TV was a JVC model, .... DT-V24L1D, 24 inch. So not really big but also not that small. I was using Canon´s KH20 lens for the shoot, was shooting @ 24p, 1/48 shutter, mostly @ f4.
I think that it just can´t be right to push the details that much into the +. That´s why I came up with this thread in the forum, asking you guys. Surely there must be a downside somehow. That´s also why I´ve shot my recent stuff with detail setting 0 which of course still look absolutely brilliant ... When doing wide angles I sometimes do a second take with another scene file which gives me a bit more detail, if I can afford time-wise.

But anyhow-this whole discussion just started because I surely am sort of a technical freak :-) .... I like to try out things a lot. I know that at the end of the day it´s all about getting a good and nice frame and then lighting this nice frame and surely covering a good story. When all these aspects play together nicely one can be satisfied with the product:-)
The camera however is a very, very good tool to make a very good product I think. Have now bought a Red Eye Wide Angle Converter for my lens. This is "non zoom through" but it does the job I wanted it to have it for:-)

Juan Tizon · April 6th, 2007, 05:35 AM

Hello,
I have a new 350 with a Canon (KH16ex5.7), everything has just arrived and on my first tests, doing some daylight exteriors, I have noticed some kind of lack of focus or softness in the wider shots. I´m going to make some scenes, with different detail adjustments.
Should I modify crispening or something if i raise detail?

My main problem is that I can not afford a HD Monitor, so i can´t check the results on the field. I´ll spend some time testing the camera under different light conditions with different scenes and then check that all in FCP.

Anybody has some PAL scenes?
(I will post mine as soon as I finish these tests) ;)

Thank you!

(Sorry for my english, it was quite a long time ago the last time that i had to write in english)

Scot Olson · April 6th, 2007, 07:25 AM

One thought that just came to mind. Both you and Emanuel are complaining of softness in wide shots. Have you checked the BACKFOCUS of the lens?

Greg Boston · April 6th, 2007, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juan Tizon

(Sorry for my english, it was quite a long time ago the last time that i had to write in english)

Your English writing and grammar in this post are very good. No apologies needed.

As Scot mentioned, I would first check the back focus on the lens using the Siemens Chart included with the camera. Back focus can be incorrect with a brand new lens.

-gb-

Emanuel Altenburger · April 6th, 2007, 12:13 PM

Hi Greg,

I´ve definitely set back-focus. That was the first thing I did with the lens:.) My images aren´t really that soft so that they look really out of focus.

Greg Boston · April 6th, 2007, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel Altenburger

Hi Greg,

I´ve definitely set back-focus. That was the first thing I did with the lens:.) My images aren´t really that soft so that they look really out of focus.

That's good to know Emanuel. Do you have any frame grabs to show us how changing the detail setting improves the image?

-gb-

Simon Wyndham · April 7th, 2007, 04:07 AM

Quote:

My images aren´t really that soft so that they look really out of focus.

Still, it is worth checking. A shoot I did recently was with someone who had assured me that they had checked, rechecked, then rechecked again the back focus on their 350. They were also complaining about soft wide shots. After using the camera for a day or two I discovered something. The backfocus was out!

Remember that backfocus is a critical adjustment. You may think that the backfocus is set correctly, but it is possible for it to be an absolute fraction out, causing things to look every so slightly softer. One of the lens manufacturers (Carl Zeiss?) makes a back focus attachment that can go on the front of all lenses that pretty much guarantees totally accurate back focus.

Lastly, the problem could be the KH20 lens. It isn't known for its optical qualities!

Emanuel Altenburger · April 10th, 2007, 05:28 AM

Alright, thanks a lot Simon. I´ll definitely do a re-check of back-focus again. Lenswise I´ll be investing in an upgrade soon. Thought the KH10 would be a good idea. But maybe there are more possibilities coming, or maybe not - when at NAB the new 2/3" model will be presented:-) But anyway that will again be a question of money. The 1/2" model offers such amazing picture quality at a very very good price.

The Zeiss tool Simon mentioned above is called Zeiss "Sharp Max" I think.

March 29th, 2007, 03:47 AM	#1
Emanuel Altenburger Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Innsbruck, Austria Posts: 134	Detail Levels Hello, I´ve posted something concerning Detail level some weeks ago. Unfortunately I couldn´t find my thread any more:-) Anyway, I just wanted to ask, whether anybody here pushes the details into + and if yes how much? I´ve done some shots with +50 and even more and especially in wide angles the image appears to be much clearer. I noticed some issues of washed out images in the wide angle, even when using f4 and wonderful wheather and wonderful light. I´ve now created a scene file with a bit more detail level and it looks brilliant. Anyway, I´m curious whether anybody here has tried that out as well? If yes, what´s your experience with this - especially when editing together a detail level + with a detail level 0 image? I will upload some images of shots I´ve done with detail 0 and detail+ as soon as I´m home again. I did some test shots of the same image and would love to hear your thoughts! Thanks a lot, Emanuel

April 2nd, 2007, 01:12 AM	#2
Uli Mors Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 565	Hi Emanuel, (and greetings from germany) with all respect to the threads and opinions in this forum - why dont you rely just on your eye? If the subject you´re on and the picture you are heading for succeeds by adding some + detail -- go for it. When matching up some cams (VX2000-> Panasonic DVC200) I have to push much detail into some shots to "fake" the general sharpness of the dvc200... and cut those footages together. Anyway, too high gain settings can look quite distracting if too much details (grass, buildings , whatever) are in the frame. Have a good monitor hooked up to your cam and decide - or prepare two scene files to switch between a "++ detailed" and a "neutral detail" setting. ULI

April 2nd, 2007, 04:38 AM	#3
Emanuel Altenburger Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Innsbruck, Austria Posts: 134	Well yes, that´s what I´m trying and I kind of like the extra bit of sharpness. I just wanted to ask forum members, whether anybody has experienced some sort of a negative situation when pushing the details up to high ... :-)

April 2nd, 2007, 10:32 AM	#4
Scot Olson Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 25	I tend to run the detail in the minus range, -20 is my usual starting point. I think the camera looks sharp without plus detail. That said, after reading your enthusiasm, I will give max detail a look on a few shots and try and remember to report back to you. The 2 questions I would have for you are: What lens are you using? And what monitor are you using to evaluate the look on? Scot

April 2nd, 2007, 11:29 AM	#5
Emanuel Altenburger Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Innsbruck, Austria Posts: 134	hello, when I saw that pushing the details looked really nice I used a Sony HD monitor on set. I think in that case it was the LMD-9050. As said I think that pushing the details into + is not necessary when shooting normal angles. But with shooting wider angles I thought it just looks a bit better. btw i wasn´t using detail max setting, but detail +50 and sometimes detail +80.

April 2nd, 2007, 04:04 PM	#7
Scot Olson Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 25	I will second Nates' opinion. The 9050 is not large enough and does not have enough resolution to make accurate judgments on detail level.

April 2nd, 2007, 04:29 PM	#8
Emanuel Altenburger Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Innsbruck, Austria Posts: 134	hello, Sorry Nate and Scot, I thought you were asking which monitor I was using on location. I somehow got that wrong, sorry. As said in another thread (which unfortunately I couldn´t find any more;-) I hooked my camcorder to a really nice and I think quite expensive HD screen (which unfortunately doesn´t belong to me:-) after the shoot and saw that there definitely was a huge difference which I somehow liked a bit. The TV was set correctly, the postproduction house told me. The TV was a JVC model, .... DT-V24L1D, 24 inch. So not really big but also not that small. I was using Canon´s KH20 lens for the shoot, was shooting @ 24p, 1/48 shutter, mostly @ f4. I think that it just can´t be right to push the details that much into the +. That´s why I came up with this thread in the forum, asking you guys. Surely there must be a downside somehow. That´s also why I´ve shot my recent stuff with detail setting 0 which of course still look absolutely brilliant ... When doing wide angles I sometimes do a second take with another scene file which gives me a bit more detail, if I can afford time-wise. But anyhow-this whole discussion just started because I surely am sort of a technical freak :-) .... I like to try out things a lot. I know that at the end of the day it´s all about getting a good and nice frame and then lighting this nice frame and surely covering a good story. When all these aspects play together nicely one can be satisfied with the product:-) The camera however is a very, very good tool to make a very good product I think. Have now bought a Red Eye Wide Angle Converter for my lens. This is "non zoom through" but it does the job I wanted it to have it for:-)

April 6th, 2007, 05:35 AM	#9
Juan Tizon Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Gijón, Asturias, Spain Posts: 26	Hello, I have a new 350 with a Canon (KH16ex5.7), everything has just arrived and on my first tests, doing some daylight exteriors, I have noticed some kind of lack of focus or softness in the wider shots. I´m going to make some scenes, with different detail adjustments. Should I modify crispening or something if i raise detail? My main problem is that I can not afford a HD Monitor, so i can´t check the results on the field. I´ll spend some time testing the camera under different light conditions with different scenes and then check that all in FCP. Anybody has some PAL scenes? (I will post mine as soon as I finish these tests) ;) Thank you! (Sorry for my english, it was quite a long time ago the last time that i had to write in english)

April 6th, 2007, 07:25 AM	#10
Scot Olson Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 25	One thought that just came to mind. Both you and Emanuel are complaining of softness in wide shots. Have you checked the BACKFOCUS of the lens?

April 6th, 2007, 12:13 PM	#12
Emanuel Altenburger Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Innsbruck, Austria Posts: 134	Hi Greg, I´ve definitely set back-focus. That was the first thing I did with the lens:.) My images aren´t really that soft so that they look really out of focus.

April 10th, 2007, 05:28 AM	#15
Emanuel Altenburger Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Innsbruck, Austria Posts: 134	Alright, thanks a lot Simon. I´ll definitely do a re-check of back-focus again. Lenswise I´ll be investing in an upgrade soon. Thought the KH10 would be a good idea. But maybe there are more possibilities coming, or maybe not - when at NAB the new 2/3" model will be presented:-) But anyway that will again be a question of money. The 1/2" model offers such amazing picture quality at a very very good price. The Zeiss tool Simon mentioned above is called Zeiss "Sharp Max" I think.