Shoot 4:3 project in SD or HD? at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony ENG / EFP Shoulder Mounts

Sony ENG / EFP Shoulder Mounts
Sony PDW-F800, PDW-700, PDW-850, PXW-X500 (XDCAM HD) and PMW-400, PMW-320 (XDCAM EX).


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 12th, 2007, 11:43 AM   #1
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Innsbruck, Austria
Posts: 134
Shoot 4:3 project in SD or HD?

Hello,

Ill be shooting an SD (4:3) job next week. I will edit the project myself. What do you think ..... is it best to record DVCAM 4:3 straight away or should I record HD and crop the brought in material to 4:3 in post? I was thinking of shooting the whole project SD 4:3 as this material wont be used in an HD environment anyway. So far Ive just done SD 16:9 shoots, which I all did in HD and downconverted it later as I thought that I might have to use this material again. So it made sense for me to shoot in HD.
But anyway, I guess theres always an advantage to shoot in HD. You could still use the "bigger" HD image to zoom in slightly in post etc, right?
Emanuel Altenburger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 12th, 2007, 01:17 PM   #2
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,100
HD downconverted to a high-end SD format will always look better, even if the downconvert is an internal software thing. The short reason why is "oversampling".

Just make sure you do it to something better than DV, i.e. DV50, or 4:2:2 uncompressed.

People shoot HDCAM and Varicam to downconvert to Digibeta everyday because it looks better, it's been standard procedure for years in some circles.

When I do it, I bring in the HD mdia, run a Compressor preset on it overnight, and edit the next day.
__________________
My Work: nateweaver.net
Nate Weaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 12th, 2007, 01:36 PM   #3
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Innsbruck, Austria
Posts: 134
Nate,

thanks a lot for the info. This definitely makes sense. And ... its what I assumed.
As I said Ive done several 16:9 SD shoots with my new F350. Ive always shot in HD and downconverted afterwards. So Ill also do it 4:3. Thanks again!
Emanuel Altenburger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 12th, 2007, 01:46 PM   #4
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 2,488
If you can easily crop from HD to SD without bogging down your editing process, then shooting HD will give you more options both now and later. But do a quick test first to see how this workflow is going to affect your ability to get the work done: if it's problematic with your current hardware/software setup then consider shooting in the delivery format. I try to shoot everything in HD now but will occasionally shoot 4:3 SD for production simplicity.
Kevin Shaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 12th, 2007, 02:08 PM   #5
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: DFW area, TX
Posts: 6,108
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw View Post
If you can easily crop from HD to SD without bogging down your editing process, then shooting HD will give you more options both now and later. But do a quick test first to see how this workflow is going to affect your ability to get the work done: if it's problematic with your current hardware/software setup then consider shooting in the delivery format. I try to shoot everything in HD now but will occasionally shoot 4:3 SD for production simplicity.
I like to shoot in HD HQ and if I need SD 4:3, I let the camera do the down convert and crop for me. The disadvantage to that is you end up working in AV/C mode and taking the usual 1:1 time ratio for ingest. But even that ratio is tempered by the ability to rough cut in the camera to a clip list and then feed the cliplist out the AV/C mode.

Of course, this also takes you to DVCAM and its 4:1:1 subsampling but that never stopped anyone from using DSR500/570 cameras. You can yield some nice results if you start with a high quality camera head, and the footage doesn't require much post processing (ie: ENG use)

Having that HD master is a good thing because it leaves all options on the table. The big advantage to actually shooting DVCAM mode natively is the extra time you get on the disc. And the smaller size proxy files allow for even easier FTP to a news bureau.

Is this a great system or what? (grin)

-gb-
Greg Boston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 12th, 2007, 02:29 PM   #6
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Innsbruck, Austria
Posts: 134
It is a wonderful system indeed. So many options are available.
Its not ENG but I will have to edit the project quite fast. Ill be shooting for a few days and usually get quite a lot of footage with this sort of project. So for me the HD route downconverting the material I need (with the help of the clip list) and ingesting AV/C sounds like the best way for me and this project. Thanks a lot for that input, Greg.

BTW.... I did have some issues with xdcam writeback and Avid. Now with version 1.6 everythings fine again.
Emanuel Altenburger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 13th, 2007, 12:35 PM   #7
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emanuel Altenburger View Post
Nate,

thanks a lot for the info. This definitely makes sense. And ... its what I assumed.
As I said Ive done several 16:9 SD shoots with my new F350. Ive always shot in HD and downconverted afterwards. So Ill also do it 4:3. Thanks again!
Emanuel,

I've had problems converting HD 60i footage to 480i when using software solutions. So beware. Even using Compressor's best preset, you will get some softening of horizontal details. If I had to use software, Sorenson Squeeze actually looked the best ;-) But...

The best downconverstion I've used is either from the Camera (as Greg B suggested) or using the AJA Kona LHe. The results are spectacular every time with no softening of horizontal detail/lines and the shots definitely look sharper than if it were shot on SD in the first place.

best regards
Greg Penetrante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 13th, 2007, 07:55 PM   #8
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: DFW area, TX
Posts: 6,108
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Penetrante View Post
The best downconverstion I've used is either from the Camera (as Greg B suggested) or using the AJA Kona LHe. The results are spectacular every time with no softening of horizontal detail/lines and the shots definitely look sharper than if it were shot on SD in the first place.
And don't forget you have a choice of low, med, high detail for the in-camera downconversion to SD.

-gb-
Greg Boston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2007, 12:26 AM   #9
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sherman Oaks California
Posts: 31
If I shoot & edit in HD 1080i 60, what's the best way to downconvert using FCP & Compressor. I've looked for presets but can't find any that make sense.
Also, where do I setup the side cropping(or center cut)?

I own AJA Kona LHe, but don't want to playout to tape, then ingest from tape to make a SD DVD-R for distribution.

Thanks
__________________
Richard Lesser
Producer, Cameraman, Editor
F350 FCP Media 100
Richard Lesser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2007, 02:04 AM   #10
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: DFW area, TX
Posts: 6,108
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Lesser View Post
If I shoot & edit in HD 1080i 60, what's the best way to downconvert using FCP & Compressor.
The good thing here, Richard is that you have left yourself options. You can go down to a 4:2:2 codec or even SD uncompressed if you are going to do a lot of post processing.

I presume from your statement that you meant downconvert to SD, but you can easily downconvert to 720P as well. Nate W. has done it with great results.

-gb-
Greg Boston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 16th, 2007, 07:19 PM   #11
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sherman Oaks California
Posts: 31
Yes Greg, I'd like to take the HD 1080i FCP sequence and get it to SD DVD 4:3.
The steps would be from FCP to Compressor to DVDSP. But, I don't know
what to setup in compressor to down convert to 480i with the proper
side cut or center cut that gets me from 16:9 to 4:3.

Thanks


"If I knew as much as Nate Weaver I'd be retired by now."
__________________
Richard Lesser
Producer, Cameraman, Editor
F350 FCP Media 100
Richard Lesser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2007, 04:57 PM   #12
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28
HD 1080 footage to 4:3 FCP timeline

I am trying to downconvert footage shot with the XDCAM at 1080 to work with an existing 4:3 project without getting letterbox. Is there a way to do this in Compressor? I too, would like to crop but don't see how to do this.

Thanks,
Warren Gentry
Warren Gentry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 25th, 2007, 11:04 AM   #13
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: DFW area, TX
Posts: 6,108
Images: 1
Richard, Warren,

You'll need to set output frame size to 854x480 and crop 67 pixels from left and right side. This will yield a 720x480 (4:3) output file. I just tried it using MPEG Streamclip with DVCPRO50 (4:2:2 color) as the compressor.

You can use Compressor, but you'll have to roll your own preset. Start with the new default template and use the inspector to adjust. There's a tab in the inspector window labeled 'geometry'. This is where you set frame size and cropping.

-gb-
Greg Boston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 26th, 2007, 05:04 PM   #14
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sherman Oaks California
Posts: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Boston View Post
Richard, Warren,

You'll need to set output frame size to 854x480 and crop 67 pixels from left and right side. This will yield a 720x480 (4:3) output file. I just tried it using MPEG Streamclip with DVCPRO50 (4:2:2 color) as the compressor.

You can use Compressor, but you'll have to roll your own preset. Start with the new default template and use the inspector to adjust. There's a tab in the inspector window labeled 'geometry'. This is where you set frame size and cropping.

-gb-
Greg,
The steps for me would then be:
1) Create Quicktime ref movie out of FCP
2) Import into Compressor
3) Setup Compressor template using 854x480 output frame size & Cropping
4) For output to DVD use my typical Mpeg2 setting?

Thanks
__________________
Richard Lesser
Producer, Cameraman, Editor
F350 FCP Media 100
Richard Lesser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 26th, 2007, 05:21 PM   #15
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,100
You don't have to specify a different frame size in Compressor to get the side crop.

Just go with 720x480 as always, and tell it to crop 160 from right and left.
Attached Thumbnails
Shoot 4:3 project in SD or HD?-picture-1.png   Shoot 4:3 project in SD or HD?-picture-2.png  

__________________
My Work: nateweaver.net
Nate Weaver is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony ENG / EFP Shoulder Mounts

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:44 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network