"Cinema Mode" or DVFilm Maker? at DVinfo.net

R.P. Cuenco · December 29th, 2005, 05:06 AM

I have an HDR-HC1 and i'm wondering what option should I take to get that 24 frame feel (whatever the hell you want to call it). Should I shoot in "Cinema Mode" or use DVFilm Maker to create a 24P stream? I'd like to know your experiences with going either route.

i.e.: Is "Cinema Mode" all that bad? Will DVFilm Maker really produce a better image or am I going to waste all my time rendering? For a $145, it better be good!

FYI: I'll be editing in FCP5 on an iMac G5 and a Power Mac G4 Dual. So if there are any other low-cost options, let me know!

also, i'm working on getting a 35mm lens adapter.

Graeme Nattress · December 29th, 2005, 09:21 AM

CF24 is bad. And you've burned it into your footage as you shoot, so you loose choices.

If you just want the film look, use my Film Effects plugins for FCP www.nattress.com . They work superbly well, do a great 60i to 24p, and have all the tonal and colour correction tools you need, and you can still edit in a HDV native timeline if you want.

If you want other options, or workfloes to film out etc. drop me an email with more details, or we can talk here.

Graeme

Robert Kirkpatrick · December 29th, 2005, 11:01 AM

After I got my FX1, I immediately did a test with the Cineframe modes, namely 24 and 30. The 30 is pretty clean, and I imagine that it would be pretty clean for the HC1 as well (if it's available). The 24 is not as good -- there is definite jitter movements -- sometimes it's not noticeable but a freeze frame would show the error.

I would do a test first, shooting once in Cineframe 24 and then regular 60i. Do a still shot with a person, waving their arms. Then do a semi-fast pan along a cluttered background. Then convert the 60i using DVfilmmaker's demo, and compare the two, frame by frame.

I use Cineform ConnectHD to convert the Cineframe-24 material to a truer 24 frame -- and it looks sharp as hell. However, I don't know if Cineform is available for a Mac.

Albert Henson · December 29th, 2005, 03:18 PM

I for one was suprised how clean the cinemode footage was from the hc1. I wouldn't use another intermediate if you don't have to. The cinema mode on the hc1 is the cineframe mode 30f found in the z1 and fx1 cameras. And I have been amazed by the professional results of the feature.

Hse Kha · December 29th, 2005, 09:50 PM

If one was to set the shutter speed at 30 then wouldn't you get "progessive" frames too?

R.P. Cuenco · December 29th, 2005, 11:27 PM

ive been exploring more of the "digital effects" and found that setting the "flash" effect to its lowest setting gives a smoother looking feel to the footage. but when i compare it to my optura, it looks 30p-ish. it also allows manual ev or shutter setting, whereas cinema mode locks both.

i've shot with the shutter at 30 but i dont really like the motion trails it leaves. it reminds me of old tube video cameras.

unfortunately, cineform isnt available on the mac. id love to use it, but id like to keep my workflow entirely on mac.

i'll take a look at Film Effects for FCP.

ultimately, i'll be shooting a 5-7 minute film that ill hope to submit to film festivals (most likely an output to dvcpro hd or another hd tape format)

Graeme Nattress · December 30th, 2005, 03:08 AM

Even still, I think shooting 60i and post processing gives you the most options. For instance, you can use the 60i to make nice slowmo, which shooting a faked 30p won't give you.

Graeme

Jeff Zimmerman · December 30th, 2005, 01:03 PM

I agree with Graeme. Shot it clean and do it in post. I have used Graeme's "Nattress Plug-in" Very nice I must say. Has saved crumby footage from the trash and also has enhanced clean footage to get that 24p film look. For example: if you every seen the movie "Traffic" - they have cool - warm film effects for different scenes. Nattress Plugin can do the same thing.

Save yourself time and open your options. Shoot clean video and effect it in post.

Good Luck!

Paul Kepen · December 30th, 2005, 09:05 PM

Hi Graeme, Just wondering if you made anything similar for us PC editors? If not, maybe you know where/what would be the closest thing for us. I just got my HC-1 a couple of weeks ago and have only had a very small amount of time to experiment with it so far. Picture quality is amazing for its size.
Thanks, PK

If you just want the film look, use my Film Effects plugins for FCP www.nattress.com . They work superbly well, do a great 60i to 24p, and have all the tonal and colour correction tools you need, and you can still edit in a HDV native timeline if you want.

If you want other options, or workfloes to film out etc. drop me an email with more details, or we can talk here.

Graeme

R.P. Cuenco · December 31st, 2005, 12:51 AM

thanks guys, ill be sure to post some footage once we're off the ground and running.

Graeme Nattress · December 31st, 2005, 03:14 AM

There are PC solutions, DV Film Maker, and the very expensive Magic Bullet for After Effects.

Graeme

John Grzinich · January 2nd, 2006, 07:28 PM

I too would stick with Graeme's advice. With all the options for post production, there isn't a great need to use effects natively while shooting.

When I get my HVR-A1, I'm looking forward to see how far postproduction can be pushed...

December 29th, 2005, 05:06 AM	#1
R.P. Cuenco Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Concord, CA Posts: 118	"Cinema Mode" or DVFilm Maker? I have an HDR-HC1 and i'm wondering what option should I take to get that 24 frame feel (whatever the hell you want to call it). Should I shoot in "Cinema Mode" or use DVFilm Maker to create a 24P stream? I'd like to know your experiences with going either route. i.e.: Is "Cinema Mode" all that bad? Will DVFilm Maker really produce a better image or am I going to waste all my time rendering? For a $145, it better be good! FYI: I'll be editing in FCP5 on an iMac G5 and a Power Mac G4 Dual. So if there are any other low-cost options, let me know! also, i'm working on getting a 35mm lens adapter.

December 29th, 2005, 09:21 AM	#2
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	CF24 is bad. And you've burned it into your footage as you shoot, so you loose choices. If you just want the film look, use my Film Effects plugins for FCP www.nattress.com . They work superbly well, do a great 60i to 24p, and have all the tonal and colour correction tools you need, and you can still edit in a HDV native timeline if you want. If you want other options, or workfloes to film out etc. drop me an email with more details, or we can talk here. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

December 30th, 2005, 03:08 AM	#7
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	Even still, I think shooting 60i and post processing gives you the most options. For instance, you can use the 60i to make nice slowmo, which shooting a faked 30p won't give you. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

December 30th, 2005, 01:03 PM	#8
Jeff Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Brighton, Colorado Posts: 386	Shoot it clean and do it in Post I agree with Graeme. Shot it clean and do it in post. I have used Graeme's "Nattress Plug-in" Very nice I must say. Has saved crumby footage from the trash and also has enhanced clean footage to get that 24p film look. For example: if you every seen the movie "Traffic" - they have cool - warm film effects for different scenes. Nattress Plugin can do the same thing. Save yourself time and open your options. Shoot clean video and effect it in post. Good Luck! __________________ Jeff Zimmerman • Love what I do • Colorado + North America www.m3films.com

December 30th, 2005, 09:05 PM	#9
Paul Kepen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis Minnesota Posts: 347	to: Graeme Nattress Hi Graeme, Just wondering if you made anything similar for us PC editors? If not, maybe you know where/what would be the closest thing for us. I just got my HC-1 a couple of weeks ago and have only had a very small amount of time to experiment with it so far. Picture quality is amazing for its size. Thanks, PK If you just want the film look, use my Film Effects plugins for FCP www.nattress.com . They work superbly well, do a great 60i to 24p, and have all the tonal and colour correction tools you need, and you can still edit in a HDV native timeline if you want. If you want other options, or workfloes to film out etc. drop me an email with more details, or we can talk here. Graeme

December 29th, 2005, 11:01 AM	#3
Robert Kirkpatrick Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: Little Rock, AR Posts: 199	After I got my FX1, I immediately did a test with the Cineframe modes, namely 24 and 30. The 30 is pretty clean, and I imagine that it would be pretty clean for the HC1 as well (if it's available). The 24 is not as good -- there is definite jitter movements -- sometimes it's not noticeable but a freeze frame would show the error. I would do a test first, shooting once in Cineframe 24 and then regular 60i. Do a still shot with a person, waving their arms. Then do a semi-fast pan along a cluttered background. Then convert the 60i using DVfilmmaker's demo, and compare the two, frame by frame. I use Cineform ConnectHD to convert the Cineframe-24 material to a truer 24 frame -- and it looks sharp as hell. However, I don't know if Cineform is available for a Mac.

December 29th, 2005, 03:18 PM	#4
Albert Henson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 65	I for one was suprised how clean the cinemode footage was from the hc1. I wouldn't use another intermediate if you don't have to. The cinema mode on the hc1 is the cineframe mode 30f found in the z1 and fx1 cameras. And I have been amazed by the professional results of the feature.

December 29th, 2005, 09:50 PM	#5
Hse Kha Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: New England Posts: 195	If one was to set the shutter speed at 30 then wouldn't you get "progessive" frames too?

December 29th, 2005, 11:27 PM	#6
R.P. Cuenco Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Concord, CA Posts: 118	ive been exploring more of the "digital effects" and found that setting the "flash" effect to its lowest setting gives a smoother looking feel to the footage. but when i compare it to my optura, it looks 30p-ish. it also allows manual ev or shutter setting, whereas cinema mode locks both. i've shot with the shutter at 30 but i dont really like the motion trails it leaves. it reminds me of old tube video cameras. unfortunately, cineform isnt available on the mac. id love to use it, but id like to keep my workflow entirely on mac. i'll take a look at Film Effects for FCP. ultimately, i'll be shooting a 5-7 minute film that ill hope to submit to film festivals (most likely an output to dvcpro hd or another hd tape format)

December 31st, 2005, 12:51 AM	#10
R.P. Cuenco Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Concord, CA Posts: 118	thanks guys, ill be sure to post some footage once we're off the ground and running.

December 31st, 2005, 03:14 AM	#11
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	There are PC solutions, DV Film Maker, and the very expensive Magic Bullet for After Effects. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

January 2nd, 2006, 07:28 PM	#12
John Grzinich New Boot Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Baltic States of... Posts: 12	postproduction I too would stick with Graeme's advice. With all the options for post production, there isn't a great need to use effects natively while shooting. When I get my HVR-A1, I'm looking forward to see how far postproduction can be pushed...