Fixes For The Red Problem? at DVinfo.net

Frank Howard · April 25th, 2006, 05:58 PM

OK... It looks like there are sometimes problems with the way HC1s and A1s pick up on red (I've seen it myself on very bright reds).
On the main thread on the problem there were several tentative suggestions (adjusting the WB manually, fixing in post, etc.) on fixes, but after looking at dozens of posts I still haven't seen anything conclusive.

What are the fixes (if any) in camera and/or in post (settings that can be plugged in)?

Cooleye Hu · April 26th, 2006, 08:06 AM

unfortunately there is no solution availabe right now to completely solve this issue. The only hope will be sony itself ! But we can try to avoid shooting the bright red in our practical footage.

Frank Howard · April 26th, 2006, 10:32 AM

I apologize for the confusion. I should have used the term workarounds to the red oversaturation issues, such as tweaks to settings that can be applied in post.
I'm starting to seriously doubt if there are any in camera workarounds though.

Mikko Lopponen · April 27th, 2006, 02:13 AM

Use manual white balance and don't let bright reds go too bright. Bring the exposure down. Works pretty well.

Alex Thames · April 27th, 2006, 09:32 PM

I've heard of people talking about +2 or +3 on the color balance, but then I hear about -2 or -3. Which is it?

Stu Holmes · April 28th, 2006, 09:28 AM

check your camera manual Alex. It looks like you're referring to the WB SHIFT feature and one way will make things more cool/blue and the other way will make things more warm/red. The way you'd probably want to go to help with the lilac/pinky-reds is to make it more warm/red. (i.e. lose some of the blue thats' turning the reds into lilac/magenta).

So : WB SHIFT more towards the warm side.
also:
- Increase the color saturation (to avoid 'pastel' colors)
- Decrease exposure, prob. via AE SHIFT at -2 or something.

Frank Howard · April 28th, 2006, 10:21 AM

Some people, like Alan Roberts who has done extensive testing of the A1, are of the opinion that the red issue is due to OVERsaturation of the red.

You can look at his findings here:
http://img.hexus.net/v2/lifestyle/al...n_res_sets.pdf

This seems to be born out by the fact that other colors do not seem to come out pastel, just bright red.

John Jay · April 28th, 2006, 10:36 AM

Are you all not taking account of 709 colour gamut?

For example when I shoot HDV for DVD I convert between ITU-R BT 709-5 (HD) and ITU-R BT 601 (typically SD) colour values.

This action alone makes the red change from a crimsonish red to a fuller red which is 'bout right.

Stu Holmes · April 28th, 2006, 01:44 PM

So John, you say that you change between 2 different colour-palettes (or whatever the correct term is) in post-prod yep? That right?
Which NLE are you using out of interest?

John Jay · April 28th, 2006, 02:41 PM

Yes,

I use Edius 3 pro, and export to DVD using Canopus Procoder 2 which has the necessary 709 to 601 gamut correction plugin.

Of course you wouldnt use the plugin if the target was HD for screening on 709 compliant HDTV

Alex Thames · April 28th, 2006, 03:01 PM

Stu, you're suggesting:
+2 WB shift
+2 Color
-2 AE Shift?

Before I was just referring to color as that's what I thought most people had mentioned changing, but I should change WB shift and AE shift as well?

Stu Holmes · April 28th, 2006, 03:20 PM

Well i'm not sure if WB SHIFT of +2 is more red or more blue, but it'll be one or the other. Do a quick test and you should see. It's logical that if you shift it more towards the warm/red end of the spectrum, that should decrease (a little anyway) the blue tones that are causing the magenta/lilac tone. Red + blue = lilac / magenta / purple.
It'll probably be a fairly subtle shift though.

Increased saturation is an advisory based on that i've heard that a lot of people think the HC1/A1 is, at default, somewhat undersaturated.

-2 AE Shift will underexpose 1 stop (each AE notch = 0.5 stops) relative to the metered expsosure. I think this should help too.

In the end, you'll just have to experiment really and see what works. Manual one-push white-balance is probably the most important thing to do though.
And at the end of the day, you should be able to fix these sort of problems in your editing package in post-production.

John Reilly · April 29th, 2006, 12:28 AM

I understand this feature may be more of a gimmick than anything, but I was curious as to whether anybody has tried it?

Does it prevent you from using any of the manual features of the HC-1 when in this mode?

How did it perform? I thought I read somewhere it caused "strobing" or some such similar undesired result....

I was hoping it would enhance/soften the "tape" look to more of a "film" look.

Appreciate your comments/advice!

--"Reilly"

Mikko Lopponen · April 29th, 2006, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Reilly

How did it perform? I thought I read somewhere it caused "strobing" or some such similar undesired result....

I was hoping it would enhance/soften the "tape" look to more of a "film" look.

Film look is strobing as film is run at 24 fps.

Graham Hickling · April 29th, 2006, 12:03 PM

Unfortunately, and unlike the A1, it disables your manual exposure control options.

Also it reduces resolution by about 30-40% (some sort of field blending is being done in-camera). The resolution drop affects both the HC1 and A1.

April 25th, 2006, 05:58 PM	#1
Frank Howard Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 157	Fixes For The Red Problem? OK... It looks like there are sometimes problems with the way HC1s and A1s pick up on red (I've seen it myself on very bright reds). On the main thread on the problem there were several tentative suggestions (adjusting the WB manually, fixing in post, etc.) on fixes, but after looking at dozens of posts I still haven't seen anything conclusive. What are the fixes (if any) in camera and/or in post (settings that can be plugged in)? Last edited by Frank Howard; April 26th, 2006 at 10:45 AM.

April 28th, 2006, 10:36 AM	#8
John Jay Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: US & THEM Posts: 827	Are you all not taking account of 709 colour gamut? For example when I shoot HDV for DVD I convert between ITU-R BT 709-5 (HD) and ITU-R BT 601 (typically SD) colour values. This action alone makes the red change from a crimsonish red to a fuller red which is 'bout right. __________________ John Jay Beware *PLUGGER-BYTES*

April 28th, 2006, 02:41 PM	#10
John Jay Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: US & THEM Posts: 827	Yes, I use Edius 3 pro, and export to DVD using Canopus Procoder 2 which has the necessary 709 to 601 gamut correction plugin. Of course you wouldnt use the plugin if the target was HD for screening on 709 compliant HDTV __________________ John Jay Beware *PLUGGER-BYTES*

April 29th, 2006, 12:28 AM	#13
John Reilly Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Eastern Los Angeles County, CA Posts: 70	HC-1 "Cinema-Effect" -- Does it Work? I understand this feature may be more of a gimmick than anything, but I was curious as to whether anybody has tried it? Does it prevent you from using any of the manual features of the HC-1 when in this mode? How did it perform? I thought I read somewhere it caused "strobing" or some such similar undesired result.... I was hoping it would enhance/soften the "tape" look to more of a "film" look. Appreciate your comments/advice! --"Reilly" Last edited by John Reilly; April 29th, 2006 at 11:07 PM.

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April 26th, 2006, 08:06 AM	#2
Cooleye Hu Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: china Posts: 30	unfortunately there is no solution availabe right now to completely solve this issue. The only hope will be sony itself ! But we can try to avoid shooting the bright red in our practical footage.

April 26th, 2006, 10:32 AM	#3
Frank Howard Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 157	I apologize for the confusion. I should have used the term workarounds to the red oversaturation issues, such as tweaks to settings that can be applied in post. I'm starting to seriously doubt if there are any in camera workarounds though.

April 27th, 2006, 02:13 AM	#4
Mikko Lopponen Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 393	Use manual white balance and don't let bright reds go too bright. Bring the exposure down. Works pretty well.

April 27th, 2006, 09:32 PM	#5
Alex Thames Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New York Posts: 508	I've heard of people talking about +2 or +3 on the color balance, but then I hear about -2 or -3. Which is it?

April 28th, 2006, 09:28 AM	#6
Stu Holmes Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 844	check your camera manual Alex. It looks like you're referring to the WB SHIFT feature and one way will make things more cool/blue and the other way will make things more warm/red. The way you'd probably want to go to help with the lilac/pinky-reds is to make it more warm/red. (i.e. lose some of the blue thats' turning the reds into lilac/magenta). So : WB SHIFT more towards the warm side. also: - Increase the color saturation (to avoid 'pastel' colors) - Decrease exposure, prob. via AE SHIFT at -2 or something.

April 28th, 2006, 10:21 AM	#7
Frank Howard Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 157	Some people, like Alan Roberts who has done extensive testing of the A1, are of the opinion that the red issue is due to OVERsaturation of the red. You can look at his findings here: http://img.hexus.net/v2/lifestyle/al...n_res_sets.pdf This seems to be born out by the fact that other colors do not seem to come out pastel, just bright red.

April 28th, 2006, 01:44 PM	#9
Stu Holmes Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 844	So John, you say that you change between 2 different colour-palettes (or whatever the correct term is) in post-prod yep? That right? Which NLE are you using out of interest?

April 28th, 2006, 03:01 PM	#11
Alex Thames Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New York Posts: 508	Stu, you're suggesting: +2 WB shift +2 Color -2 AE Shift? Before I was just referring to color as that's what I thought most people had mentioned changing, but I should change WB shift and AE shift as well?

April 28th, 2006, 03:20 PM	#12
Stu Holmes Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 844	Well i'm not sure if WB SHIFT of +2 is more red or more blue, but it'll be one or the other. Do a quick test and you should see. It's logical that if you shift it more towards the warm/red end of the spectrum, that should decrease (a little anyway) the blue tones that are causing the magenta/lilac tone. Red + blue = lilac / magenta / purple. It'll probably be a fairly subtle shift though. Increased saturation is an advisory based on that i've heard that a lot of people think the HC1/A1 is, at default, somewhat undersaturated. -2 AE Shift will underexpose 1 stop (each AE notch = 0.5 stops) relative to the metered expsosure. I think this should help too. In the end, you'll just have to experiment really and see what works. Manual one-push white-balance is probably the most important thing to do though. And at the end of the day, you should be able to fix these sort of problems in your editing package in post-production.

April 29th, 2006, 12:03 PM	#15
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Unfortunately, and unlike the A1, it disables your manual exposure control options. Also it reduces resolution by about 30-40% (some sort of field blending is being done in-camera). The resolution drop affects both the HC1 and A1.