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Sony HVR-A1 and HDR-HC Series
Sony's latest single-CMOS additions to their HDV camcorder line.


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Old May 21st, 2006, 06:58 PM   #1
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A1 & HC3 question......

Hey guys I work with the HVX on the job. I was looking for a camera for vacation and fun. I want the look of 24fps but the average consumer camera does not offer this accept the sony line.

I wanted to know the difference if any between the A1 & HC3 in cine mode.

I have searched but not found a solid answer.

Thanks!
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 01:54 PM   #2
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The HC1 really doesn't have the cineframe mode at all. It has something similar but it is not nearly as good as the A1.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 02:48 PM   #3
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The A1U allows you to choose between Cineframe30 and Cineframe24, while the HC1 and HC3 only offer the Cinema Effect which is basically Cineframe24.

The A1U allows you to adjust several manual settings (exposure, shutter speed, spot meter, etc) with the Cineframe mode while the HC1 and HC3 allow virtually no manual adjustment when using the Cinema Effect (everything becomes controlled by the camera).

I personally don't think that the Cinema Effect looks that bad (when the 24fps footage is extracted with Cineform HDLink) when the target is SD and there isn't a lot of movement. The cadence is not true 24fps (the 30fps is fine) but if you like the look and it fits the effect you're going for then it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, does it? :-)

That said, if you want the 24fps look, you can deinterlace in post with many programs (DVFilm Maker, AVISynth/VirtualDub) with very nice results (better than the Cinema Effect). However, I'm sure that you are aware that no interlaced to progressive image will ever be as good as a true progressive image.

Last edited by John McManimie; May 22nd, 2006 at 04:41 PM.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 07:14 PM   #4
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Great info guys! Looks like the HC3 will fit my needs as long as the cineframe is a cineframe24 effect, really good to know.

Its all about size for me when on vacation with the new baby! Anything else at home I will use the HVX.

Thanks a bunch.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 07:20 PM   #5
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If you really want the 24p effect, you can also buy a PAL camera... it will achieve perfect 24p conversion with no stutter with the right software (cineform...)
.

its the best alternative to real 24p.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 07:29 PM   #6
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The HC-3 does not offer a cine effect in manual mode or when other features are enabled. I guess it is better to deinterlace and color correct in Post.
Another thing is a strong vertical smear at spotlights on the HC-3.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 07:44 PM   #7
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The HC1's "cinema" effect is worthless. The motion jutter that it produces is way over exagerrated and is too random, (not the temporal smoothness you'd expect).

The best advice is to shoot the highest data-rate/rez the camera provides, which is 1080i for the HC1, and convert to 24p in post.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 08:38 PM   #8
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While the HC1 and HC3 go "auto" while using the Cinema Effect, be realistic about what it is... an Effect. As I said before, "if you like the look and it fits the effect you're going for then it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, does it"?

Effects are subjective. There is no chart or test to determine if some look is "worthless". I'm not the only one who feels that way. As for the Cineframe24 look:

See Jon Fordham's take on CF24 (FX1):
http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/sonyhdrfx1/fordham8.php

See this article:
http://www.infocomm.org/index.cfm?ob...4904244F954FE6

See the thread "Sony HC1 Cineframe Rocks":
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=56590

Look here for more info:
http://www.adamwilt.com/HDV/cineframe.html
http://www.cineform.com/products/Son.../CineFrame.htm
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 09:08 PM   #9
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I agree, it's a matter of personal taste -so 'worthless' is just my opinion and perhaps too strong of one. I just punched that in and shot some stuff with the effect and didn't like it. I guess it looked more "faked" than real and I can't get past that.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 09:15 PM   #10
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I totally get the limitations of these cameras in the realm of 24fps.
Like I said before I work with the HVX so really anything important is covered.

I just wanted something small for the beach and pool that at least had a fake 24fps look to it.

It just is a look I prefer, in no way am I seeking perfection from the HC3.

Any Mac based programs that work like cineform?

Thanks for all the great input guys!
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 10:01 PM   #11
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I guess for my personal eye, I'm not a big fan of the Cinema-Effect either.
When I first heard about this "effect" I tried it out and found that I preffered the footage I shot with manual adjustments, much more than the footage taken with the Cinema-Effect.

Also, do you have to use a special program to capture the Cinema-Effect video? Because when I did it thru VMS Platinum, the m2t file still shows as 60i.

Maybe i'm capturing it wrong (or with the wrong software), perhaps my view on the cinema-effect would be different.

Otherwise, I would much rather create the 24p effect in post.

my 3 cents and a question worth :)

jg

Doesn't the HC3 have some sorta feature though that cranks it up to 120fps or something for a few seconds? I'm wishing the HC1 had that :)

---EDIT---

Just noticed someone mentioned that you need to extract the Cinema-effect footage via some form of Cineform HDlink or something. So maybe that's where I went wrong.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 10:45 PM   #12
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Well, I'll post my strong opinion and say that both Cinema modes on the A1U are worthless. You can't even do a simple pan without a major amount of jerkiness. What good is that?

Just shoot in normal mode and fix it in post.
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Old May 23rd, 2006, 12:54 AM   #13
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>> Also, do you have to use a special program to capture the Cinema-Effect video? Because when I did it thru VMS Platinum, the m2t file still shows as 60i.

You MUST extract the pulldown (using something like Cineforms HDLink). Whenever I hear someone proclaiming that CF24/Cinema mode is "worthless" or "far too jerky" my immediate suspicion is that they may not have done this...or else they havent locked their shutter speed to 1/60.
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Old May 23rd, 2006, 08:21 AM   #14
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This is how it looks in camera. Crappy.
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Old May 23rd, 2006, 08:54 AM   #15
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Yes, in camera, as an "effect", and average Joe would do no more than burn a DVD as is. However, in all fairness, I'll fire up the workstation and do a pull down and reserve my opinion until then.
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