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Sony HVR-A1 and HDR-HC Series
Sony's latest single-CMOS additions to their HDV camcorder line.


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Old November 2nd, 2006, 04:22 PM   #1
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HVR 24fps true? or Cineframe from FX1 days?

The title pretty much says it all. I just got one of these after B&H advertised that it did 24p. Looking at the menus, it is just Cineframe, like the FX1 (i.e., not good looking). Anyone have any ideas? I'm hoping to mix this footage as b-roll with my XDCAM 24fps footage.

Thanks!
Max
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 04:29 PM   #2
 
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Well, if you're asking about the HVR A1 doing true 24p, no, it is not. It's flagged, and unless you've got the CineForm application, it's not a pretty 24p like you've got with your XDCAM. The V1U is better for this. In fact, if you're in the Burbank area, I'm teaching a class on this subject on Saturday at the Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences.
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Old October 22nd, 2007, 01:47 PM   #3
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V1U 24p vs. 24pa

Advanced or not advanced, that's the question? Any brief insight on which is best used when? Thanks.
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Old October 26th, 2007, 06:57 AM   #4
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Does the cineform also work with the HC1 for the Cineframe?
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Old October 28th, 2007, 12:06 PM   #5
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1080i conversion to 24p

Max -

I shoot with a Panasonic AG-HVX200 and use an A1U for B roll and jib shots.

A product that I found helpful to convert 1080i footage is Raylight's DVFilm Maker found here http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/index.htm

A review of it can be found here http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage...r_douglas.html

It seems to do a good job of getting rid of the interlaced "jaggies" and blending into 24p editing. I have a pro bono video I just finished that had a shot from my A1U mixed in with HVX footage shot in 720p here http://newmediadevelopmentcorporatio...eo%20Demo.html.
Near the end is a clip of a daisy and a bee that was shot in 1080p with the HVX. However, the HVX just removes the pulldown and doesn't shoot natively, thus the jaggies are still evident. I forgot to use DVFilm Maker on that clip. (After I wrote that, I took the clip and ran it through DVFilm Maker and have attached it to this - I think you can really see the difference: makes me sick I didn't use it!).

The A1U shot is the 5th cut of the river. It was shot at dusk as you can see and had some color added to the sky in Boris Red 4. The overall video is dark because I was not using a secondary monitor like I usually do and my laptop screen settings were way off. I ended up turning down the brightness and adding some contrast to my clips, when the real issue was the laptop monitor, not the footage.

I'd be interested if DSE has and experience with this product. If I lived three thousand miles closer I'd sure attend his class. His HDV book came with my camera and I must have read it twenty times. His Vegas books are great, too (DSE - Do you have a Vegas 8 book coming out?).

I'll go out and try to get some shots this morning with the A1U where I can post some comparison pictures for you and also try to color correction as well.

Regards,

Mark Gervasoni
Richmond, VA
www.newmediadevcorp.com
Attached Files
File Type: wmv DVFilm test.wmv (1.70 MB, 655 views)
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Old October 28th, 2007, 05:52 PM   #6
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Interlaced comparison DVFilm

I made a group of files that compares the 1080i image from the A1U to the HVX with "filmic Gamma" and shooting 720p with the application of DvFilm Maker. Unfortunately, the image I shot didn't get the usual jaggies but I decided to work with it anyway.

From the comparsion my only take away is that it is possible to get A1U footage to match reasonably well for certain types of shots. I would not recommend for closeups. It seems to handle color correction okay considering the 4:2:0 color space. Definitely don't use for chroma key work. I find the most difficult part about the A1U is trying to get it to go manual when you want it to. It's forever going back to auto if you push a wrong button. I've found the only way to set shutter is to switch on "nightshot" on the lens barrel while in the shutter menu, for example. And then it won't allow you to go back and change the shutter if you so desire without going through the whole process again.

I've attached a few of the wmv's if you like to look at them. The first post I made has the best example of why DvFilm Maker earns it's keep. Even though that was HVX footage that was fixed, I have had similar results before with A1U footage. Just have to find it!

Mark
Attached Files
File Type: wmv Interlaced and DVFilm.wmv (630.4 KB, 165 views)
File Type: wmv Interlaced w and wo CC.wmv (1.13 MB, 142 views)
File Type: wmv A1U no CC HVX.wmv (1.13 MB, 149 views)
File Type: wmv A1U wCC HVX.wmv (1.20 MB, 149 views)
File Type: wmv A1U CC and HVX final.wmv (1.23 MB, 162 views)
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Old October 29th, 2007, 01:04 PM   #7
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Couldn't find this in manual

I was perusing some other posts and came across a two year old problem that I commented on above. This may be in the manual, but I've never seen it.

To manually adujst the shutter speed, you have to turn off the manual exposure level adjuster on the camera body (by pushing the exp/vol button).

I've been forever switching the nightshot switch on the barrel to make the manual shutter available.

That's one small step for a moron, one giant leap for me!

BTW, I also see where DSE has an update on the VASST Vegas training for Vegas Pro 8 users. I look forward to checking it out.
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Old October 29th, 2007, 03:06 PM   #8
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DvFilm and Cineframe comparison

I shot a clip in Cineframe 24 and then ran it thru DvFilm Maker with no retouching or speed changes.

After running through DvFilm Maker, its properties show as a progressive clip. The originial Cineframe's properties show it as an interlaced 29.97 clip.

I think DvFilm Maker smooths out the motion of the clip (shot handheld obviously) and adds a little color or darkens it slightly. Altogether not a bad look in my eyes.

Real test will be on some projects coming up. Hope to be able to post those in the near future. If anyone else has any ideas on how to get lower end HDV footage to blend in to 24p better please let's hear from you! Most small outfits can't afford multiple XDCams, Varicams, or even several HVR-V1U's.

In my own case, using an HVX as my primary camera, maybe I should add a Panasonic DVX100 (which shoots 24p). However, I'd be giving up HD. And as far as form factor and professional capabilities goes, I don't see anything matching the A1U (expecially with the ability to record low impedence powered mics right into the camera like on the big boys).

Mark
Attached Files
File Type: wmv Cineframe_DVFilm.wmv (1.86 MB, 189 views)
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Old October 30th, 2007, 05:01 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gervasoni View Post
I've found the only way to set shutter is to switch on "nightshot" on the lens barrel while in the shutter menu, for example. And then it won't allow you to go back and change the shutter if you so desire without going through the whole process again.
I can change the shutter anytime I like with my hc1 which is basically a consumer A1. Just remember to take the exposure lock off before adjusting shutter.
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Old November 10th, 2007, 03:20 PM   #10
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Hey Mark,

I was curious about the look of Cineframe with the HC1 after using DVfilm - thanks for the test.
Its too bad about the compression, because it is hard to tell what the DVfilm is doing.
Do you have a stationary shot or something with the conversion?
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Old November 11th, 2007, 02:00 PM   #11
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DVFilm for HC1

David -

I'm buried in getting ready for a 4 day Maya class this week, so I don't have time to pull something together. Have you gone to the DVfilm.com website to check out the product? They probably have some decent tests there. I think they also have a demo download. Well worth the time to try it out, not sure if Cineform has a free trial. I'd like to test theirs as well.

If I get a chance, I'll try to pull some screen shots. If not, might have to be next week.

I'm headed into some heavy shooting after this week. I'll have the opportunity to test all kinds of footage soon. I'm also trying to adapt my new Letus Extreme 35mm adapter to the A1U. Would really be interested to see what it can do. I'd like to make it into a portable rig that I can use for handheld footage that I'd be mixing with my HVX. I tried hand held with the HVX and it sort of works, but you really need a shoulder brace to use it. I'm hoping I can the the A1U rig light enough to work without one.

Mark
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Old November 11th, 2007, 07:40 PM   #12
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Thanks, I am looking forward to seeing your footage.

I did for to DVfilm and looked through their message board ,but didn't find the answer I was looking for.
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Old November 14th, 2007, 10:05 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by David Delaney View Post
Thanks, I am looking forward to seeing your footage.

I did for to DVfilm and looked through their message board ,but didn't find the answer I was looking for.
Maker can remove 3:2 pulldown and can also convert 60i to 24P. make sure you have release 2.4 if you're trying to remove pulldown.

Also if you drop an mpeg2 file into Maker it applies certain filtering to the 4:2:0 chroma, filtering which is not ordinarily done by mpeg2 decoders, and which results in better image for progressive-type material.
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