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Sony HVR-V1 / HDR-FX7
Pro and consumer versions of this Sony 3-CMOS HDV camcorder.


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Old November 3rd, 2007, 08:41 AM   #1
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New V1 user asks: Anyone shooting 30p?

I just finished my first tests and I do like the look of 30p on the V1. I panned both slow and fast across a field on a very windy day with palm trees blowing and 30p yielded nice results - better than 24p and it stood up against 60i.
My final output will be DVD (in SD for now, with a promise by my distributor to buy BluRay DVD next year). I will also be on cable broadcast in 5 countries.

My question: Am I limiting myself by using 30p and what problems do I face by using Final Cut 6 (FCS2) as my only NLE?

Thank you for any help.
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Old November 3rd, 2007, 10:45 AM   #2
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Hi there,

For one reason, you might be kicking yourself by using 30p : the NTSC to PAL conversion. I have heard more than once that the conversion can be really difficult from 30p to 25p.

Bear in mind that i haven t test this conversion personnaly so it might be working OK but you might want to check that out. I love the 30p look myself but since i realize that issue i am reluctant to use it.

Philippe
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Old November 3rd, 2007, 04:16 PM   #3
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I use 30p with 1/30 shutter in low light. If I need to worry about compatibility with PAL, I'll probably use 24P in those situations.
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Old November 3rd, 2007, 07:28 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Braeley View Post
with a promise by my distributor to buy BluRay DVD next year).
I'm not sure why you are looking to shoot either 30p or 24p since you admit 60i looks better than both. Moreover, 60i to 50i is a very common conversion so you'll have no problems.

Assuming you have a reason for low frame-rate video, then only go with 24p.

1) only 24p goes to NTSC and PAL without serious problems.

2) Blu-ray only supports 24p, 50i, and 60i.

However, FCP doesn't do 24p easily -- which suggests 60i is the optimum solution. This is also smart because you'll may need to send your production to the BD creaters on HDCAM or DVCPRO HD. It will be far far easier to move 1080i60 than any kind of 24p.
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Old November 3rd, 2007, 11:12 PM   #5
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I shot in 30p for an informercial about 5 months ago, because the other camera was an HD100. If I had to do it again, I'd use two HD100s or two V1u's. And I'd shoot in 1080i60, though 30p gave it that nice progressive look, something like video and 24p, all at once.

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Old November 4th, 2007, 07:51 AM   #6
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Thank you for some helpful feedback. I am a newcomer to HDV, but the last 3 years I have been shooting in 24p with the DVX100, with great results - and it is easy to edit in FCP and go to DVD in 24p.
My distributor gave me a spec, that includes for supplying a 24p DVD - I also believed DVD (and BluRay) can handle 30p. So hence my 30p question, especially after some tests and comparison to my 24p test on the V1.

I concur with Steve Mullen and I know he favors staying away from shooting progressive (in past threads). If I choose 60i, it is for the ease in editing with FCP - I was hoping any progressive issues with FCP would have been resolved by now, but it appears not so.

It does get confusing though - on Friday, I went to a Sony 'Cinema' seminar and many of the DP's said they were shooting in 24p - ok, many on expensive cinealta's, but a few in HDV format.
This is not an easy to answer question - that, I am sure of.
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Old November 5th, 2007, 04:03 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Braeley View Post
I am a newcomer to HDV, but the last 3 years I have been shooting in 24p with the DVX100, with great results - and it is easy to edit in FCP and go to DVD in 24p.
My distributor gave me a spec, that includes for supplying a 24p DVD - I also believed DVD (and BluRay) can handle 30p. So hence my 30p question, especially after some tests and comparison to my 24p test on the V1.
Unfortunately, many dealers and DVX100 users think of the V1's 24p as simply na HD version of DV's 24p. It's not. The most common goof is thinking that the V1's 24PS means ADVANCED. It does not.

Tonight I just got another email from someone who shot 24P not 24PA. This is a painful error since the way of working with 24PA in FCP -- using Cinema Tools -- doesn't work with 24P.

That's why if one was only going to NTSC I recommend 30p. But, once you say PAL, then it's either 24PA or 60i. My eBook does cover using 24PA with FCP so it's not impossible. I love folks buying my book, but I'd be the first to say your world will be simpler if you shoot 60i.

PS: Last I checked, 25p was NOT supported on HD DVD.
So be sure you confirm BD and HD DVD support 30p. The spec. may say 30fps by which they mean 60i. And, be sure the software you will use supports 30p. Again, better safe than sorry.
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Old November 5th, 2007, 05:46 AM   #8
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I'd love to see 60p but as I hand-hold most of the time I just can't handle 24p and I prefer the realistic look anyway.

Last edited by Colin Zhang; November 5th, 2007 at 05:47 AM. Reason: add info
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Old November 5th, 2007, 06:53 AM   #9
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I know a few FCP users have come unstuck with 24p footage - my last two docs were shot in 24A, and they always received nice comments on the footage.

If one goes by the rule that the delivery method dictates what you shoot in, then 60i is the safest choice, as Steve rightly points out. And, this is probably what I will choose, having just talked to one of my distributors, who worries that I cannot service his broadcasters in the UK if I shoot 30p.
If I do need to supply a DVD in 24p, then I could get there from 60i, but I have'nt done a test for myself yet.
Thank you everyone for your help.

Colin, are you in Beijing now? I will be there this week, to shoot some Martial Arts. I will be in Beijing for 5 weeks. Get in touch if so - jon@emptymindfilms.com
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Old November 5th, 2007, 07:21 AM   #10
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What if you are going directly to the web? Isn't 30p one of the better choices? I have a project heading direct to web and am considering 30p so I won't have to de-interlace later.
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Old November 5th, 2007, 11:05 AM   #11
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What if you are going directly to the web? Isn't 30p one of the better choices?...
Yes! Of course now you're locked in to 30p as regards other potential distribution.
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Old November 5th, 2007, 03:11 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Jon Braeley View Post
having just talked to one of my distributors, who worries that I cannot service his broadcasters in the UK if I shoot 30p.
If I do need to supply a DVD in 24p, then I could get there from 60i, but I have'nt done a test for myself yet.
A few months ago when 25p HD DVD was discussed here -- Toshiba was not supporting 25p on any player. Given that so many 24fps films were released by speeding-up to 25p -- this seemed odd. Unless, the idea was that in the world of HD there would be only three formats: 24p, 50i, and 60i. Movies would stop being released at 25p. (The same MAY be true of BD.)

If there are no players that play 25p, then unless firmware is released for players -- it looks like in the HD world, if one wants low-rate footage, one has to shoot 24p.

Which means Apple and Avid not directly supporting the V1 is a major pain. However, I don't want to leave the impression one CANNOT use FCP. It's that each source clip must be processed by Cinema Tools before the final edit. In the next 48-hours I will see if Apple fixed CT's batch capability. If they did then it becomes MUCH easier to do.

PS 1: I keep hearing that at long last Apple will support 720p50 and 720p60. (I assume as part of support of 10.5.) Maybe 24p will be in this upgrade.

PS 2: Yes, my ebook does cover 60i to 24p post-production.
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Old November 5th, 2007, 03:19 PM   #13
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30p for downconvert

Just a comment on 30p. I have been experimenting with editing in HDV and outputting as a 1080i Quicktime reference file into procoder. I used Procoder to downconvert it to standard 16x9 NTSC. It produces a much more detailed image than standard DV. The one issue that I have seen is related to the field order. I have to switch the field order to get the correct sequence of frames, but this sometimes introduces vertical jitter because the scan lines are now in the wrong sequence. If I tell Procoder that it is a 1080p (30fps) image, then the jitter is gone, but rapid movement gives a double image on each frame. Shooting in 30p should solve this problem, giving a pristine downconvert that will look as good as any commercial DVD. Just a Note: The jitter issue is not visible on a computer screen, but shows up when viewing the DVD on a 56" 1080p DLP TV.

I'm looking for a sample mt2 video file shot in 30p format to continue my experiments. I don't have an HDV comcorder yet, but am seriously considering Sony's V1U or the new EX1.
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Old November 5th, 2007, 04:09 PM   #14
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FROM THE TOSHIBA E1 MANUAL:

"HD DVD discs containing high definition content at
a field rate of 50Hz or a frame rate of 25Hz can not
be played on this player without a firmware update.
Firmware update is expected in the future."

So in the PAL world -- only 24p playback.

ALSO THIS:

"To view high-definition picture in HD DVD discs,
a 60 Hz compatible HDTV display (720p, 1080i,
1080p) is required."
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Old November 6th, 2007, 12:14 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Petersen View Post
rapid movement gives a double image on each frame
That can be caused by using too high a shutter speed, so that the blur in the two individual fields doesn't blend well when the fields are combined into a 30p frame. Did you fix your shutter at 1/60 (or less) when you filmed that footage? One possibility to consider....
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