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Sony HVR-V1 / HDR-FX7
Pro and consumer versions of this Sony 3-CMOS HDV camcorder.


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Old December 17th, 2007, 05:54 PM   #1
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BD/HD DVD lacking 25p? Well, not really!

It has been a mystery to me how it's possible that both HD delivery formats lacking explicit 25p format, Sony is still pushing it with their cameras, and recently even adding the native 25p (in the Z7E). On my V1E, I've been shooting progressive almost exclusively, and kept wondering on the best delivery method.

I have some good news on this. It turns out that even though BD specs do not list 25p, there is no problem at all authoring a BD disk with 25fps progressive stuff on it, and it plays OK as well!

I have only today tried it out on my new Sony Vaio laptop, which comes with a BD burner and a little authoring application, Click to DVD-BD. I was able to burn a nice disk (with menu), using a raw m2t clip from my V1E, shot in 1080/25PsF. The m2ts file created in the STREAM folder is seen by Vegas as 25fps interlaced, but plays just like the progressive original clip.

What's even better, there is no re-encoding whatsover involved!

I am waiting now for the EX1 to which my current V1E will be the B camera, so the natural question arises: will the HQ, native 25p also be possible to burn on a BD disk - which isn't obvious at all, as it's not 50i-compatible.

I have checked this even before the EX1 arrived, and have good news, as well. No problem with "true" 25p (i.e. not PsF), either - have just rendered a full length MPG2 (1080/25p, 30 Mbps VBR, DD 5.1 audio) in Vegas, and authored a BluDisk using this smart little app (Click to DVD-BD); coming from Sony it even recognizes markers from Vegas timeline, so chapter points are conveyed automatically. The BD has a full-featured menu and plays back perfectly...

Looks like it will be possible to successfuly mix 25PsF from my V1E with the HQ native 25p from the EX1 when it comes, and deliver on BD without transcoding to 24p...Well, at least the fielding should not pose a problem!
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Last edited by Piotr Wozniacki; December 18th, 2007 at 05:27 AM.
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Old December 17th, 2007, 06:28 PM   #2
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What player are you using that will play your dvd-bd? I have been having a hard time finding players that will play my bluray dvds. Haven't found a sony bluray play that will work. It does work on the samsungs I have tried.

Thanks
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Old December 17th, 2007, 06:37 PM   #3
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What player are you using that will play your dvd-bd? I have been having a hard time finding players that will play my bluray dvds. Haven't found a sony bluray play that will work. It does work on the samsungs I have tried.

Thanks
That has been THE problem with BD. Each player has its restrictions on what can be played. Sometimes firmware adds to the list -- sometimes it removes capabilities. The PS3 is the one that seems to play everything.
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Old December 17th, 2007, 06:57 PM   #4
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Personally, I feel if they were going to add anything to the BD spec it should be 30p, since HD-DVD supports it. And there is an HD-DVD disc on the market authored this way.

I would be more likely to shoot 30p on the V1U instead of 60i if I knew I could deliver it that way.

I agree with Steven Mullen on the PS3 also, it's an excellent BDP in my opinion.
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Old December 18th, 2007, 02:55 AM   #5
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For both burning and playback, I'm using the BD writer that comes with my new Sony Vaio laptop. You're right - I must try it out in some others.
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Old December 18th, 2007, 07:10 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki View Post
For both burning and playback, I'm using the BD writer that comes with my new Sony Vaio laptop. You're right - I must try it out in some others.
the vaio burnt blue rays that i have made from 1080i camcorder captured footage play fine on my ps3.
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Old December 18th, 2007, 07:16 AM   #7
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the vaio burnt blue rays that i have made from 1080i camcorder captured footage play fine on my ps3.
Yeah, the PC/Mac internal drives and the PS3 is one thing, and all those stand-alone BD players out there is another... I am going to give my BD a test drive these days - will keep you posted.
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Old December 18th, 2007, 09:50 AM   #8
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Piotr, I use the same cam (V1E) and also shoot mostly in it's 25P mode.

After editing in Edius in a 25P project setting I athored it in Roxio DVDit Pro with menus and burned it to a BD disk that plays just great in my PS3.

I was very curious to know what happens if I use the player controls to single step through the video, eg I have some golf practice footage and this works just great to see each frame either forwards or backwards with each frame looking as sharp and clear as a decent still photo since I used 1/200th sec shutter speed for this. However what interests me more is that it takes TWO pushes of the remote control step button to move a frame unlike another chapter which ihas interlaced footage where stepping is just a single push, not two pushes if you see what I mean.

In short I am endevouring to find the best way to get progressive footage from my V1E onto Blue Ray disks that work properly and I don't think I am quite there yet since it's plain I am using an interlaced setup rather than progessive though the prog footage still works, as you have found. Some more experimenting seems neccessary.

What puzzles me about your Sony software is that somehow it can put unconverted raw transport stream from your camera straight onto BD? How is this when I need to pre-process my footage into proper BD compliant files for it not to be automatically re-encoded by Roxio, thus suffering Roxio's conversion process rather than Procoders's MAstering Quality if I should leave out this important step.

Could it be that the Sony software is making a very propriatory form of BD that is only playable on your PC?
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Old December 18th, 2007, 10:04 AM   #9
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Whoops, I have read your initial post more closely and see it is in fact compliant files you are putting on BD.
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Old December 18th, 2007, 10:21 AM   #10
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Could it be that the Sony software is making a very propriatory form of BD that is only playable on your PC?
Hi Claire,

In fact, I've yet to see my BDs playing back from a regular, stand-alone BD player connected to a PAL HDTV rather than from a PC drive and on a PC LCD screen, which by the very defition is 60 Hz refresh rate...

The same applies to your playback from PS3, which is more like a PC than a stand-alone player - have you tried your BDs on another player?
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Old December 18th, 2007, 12:19 PM   #11
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Price check

I'm very interested to know current HD-DVD and BR player prices as we're now in the big selling season in the US. Was at Costco 2 days ago (a big-box membership retailer).

HD-DVD set-top box - $200 US with 7 free movies.
BR-DVD - $279 with same.

The free movies deal is that you get three or four in the box, then choose the remainder from a list of 25 or so and receive later.

Don't know what's happening in Europe with pricing, but it looks like in the US we're now down to the prices that consumers and business' can easily afford, probably see some market acceptance over the next 18 months, IMO.
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Old December 18th, 2007, 03:11 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki View Post
Yeah, the PC/Mac internal drives and the PS3 is one thing, and all those stand-alone BD players out there is another... I am going to give my BD a test drive these days - will keep you posted.
yes at present i think few if any bd players [exept ps3s]play pc burnt bds keep me posted.
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Old December 18th, 2007, 04:08 PM   #13
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Hi Claire,

In fact, I've yet to see my BDs playing back from a regular, stand-alone BD player connected to a PAL HDTV rather than from a PC drive and on a PC LCD screen, which by the very defition is 60 Hz refresh rate...

The same applies to your playback from PS3, which is more like a PC than a stand-alone player - have you tried your BDs on another player?
Not yet, the shops are too full of customers at this time of year to put up with me and my disk, but I know already it will be unlikely to work other than with a PS3 as someone here with a Sony laptop had a demo in a Sony Centre and the BD they made would not work when the staff tried the disk in the Sony players, must have embarrassed them I think.

I take your point that the PS3 is yet another computer though I believe it does connect to my HDTV at 50 Hz. What concerns me is the 25PsF video from my V1E correctly displayed, it looks it, except for this single stepping business where two pushes on the button are needed to see a different image as opposed to one for 50i. Seems with 50i stuff stepping moves between fields and with 50PsF it moves between "duplicate frames".

Could you check this with your disk on your Sony Laptop's HD player software? My thinking is that with this quirk that there is something not quite right, maybe I should be converting the footage to 24P and making a 24P BD, which I don't want to have to do, like you! But just not sure right now.
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Old December 18th, 2007, 04:37 PM   #14
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Claire, just like you, I'm not even trying to visit a Sony Center just before Christmas :) I'll keep you posted right after the holidays.

As to connecting to external display: I do have a full HD monitor, but this one is also 60 Hz of course - other than that, I own a 42" plasma TV, but SD only (planning to upgrade soon, certainly if my BD experiments are successful). Anyway, I connected the Vaio to it via HDMI, and - while downscaled to SD - the image from the BD is gorgeous. The plasma is of course 50 Hz (and even 100 Hz) capable, as it's a PAL model - but there really is no way to tell for 100% whether or not it displays at 50 Hz or 60 Hz (which it's also compatible with). However, judging from the lack of any motion artefacts or flicker, it might be actually displaying at 100 Hz.

BTW, in the BD player on the Vaio there is a control named "PAL TrueSpeed"; when playing back on the internal LCD it's unaccessible (dimmed), but with another display attached with HDMI I can check it off and on. Alas, no visible difference.

As to the frame-by-frame stepping - no, it's sufficient to press it once here, with both the 24p and 25p BDs I burned. But this is a software player, so I'm not sure whether this proves anything.
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Old December 19th, 2007, 04:12 AM   #15
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we should find out[from sony] why vaio burnt blue ray discs may only play on pcs and ps3s,i see little point as a long term storage ,just temporary play maybe.
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