HVR-V1U: Sony unveils new 24P HDV camcorder

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Brian S. Nelson

Will the V1U have a ‘nightshot’ mode? I know this is somewhat of an esoteric feature but I’d like to capture footage of owls with an external infrared light source. If so, will the slow motion mode still work? Slow motion footage of the owls at night would be really cool.

There is indeed a hypergain mode, and yes, slo mo works in that mode.

[Craig Irving]

I love this camcorder. Douglas, your footage has been amazing. I was pretty floored when I saw that zoom as well, even though I probably won't be taking advantage of it really, but it's good to know it can look that incredible!! I'll certainly be picking this up. I'm already in paradise, but obviously it'd be complete bliss if the BlackMagic HDMI enabled 4:2:2 as well. I guess time will tell. I can't wait to find out.

Also, does anyone know if the tripod that is being launched with the V1U is better or worse than the Sony 1170RM. Are those both fluid heads? I can't find many reviews of Sony tripods. No one seems to be using them. I guess I should be looking at Manfrotto and all those other manufacturers?

I have a question regarding editing. I know NLEs of today will be able to edit the footage right away as 60i. But in the future when Premiere and Vegas get updated...does anything change? Or is it still capturing as 60i. I've been trying to follow the conversation but I still don't understand this. I understand it's recorded to the tape as 60i...so what exactly is missing from NLEs? What work needs to be done to make it better? Anything? And is Vegas 7 addressing it, do you think?

[Dominic Jones]

Can't see why the BlackMagic won't support 4:2:2 - what I'd like to see is a locking mechanism on HDMI/FireWire/Etc cables so that they can't fall out during a camera move...

As for Sony tripods, never used one but can't believe they're all that worthwhile. It's worth spending a lot more on tripods than people do - a good one will last you the life of 5 camcorders for the price of half of one, and at the end of the day, what's the point in having a great camera if all your moves look sh*tty?!

For my tuppence worth (and I'm sure you'll get as many opinions as answers on this one) Vintons are the best bet at the lower (but still not budget) end of the range - I've got a Vision3 and it's just fantastic. Check out the "Support your camera" forum for more on our three-legged friends!

[Stu Holmes]

Originally Posted by Brian S. Nelson

Will the V1U have a ‘nightshot’ mode?

No i don't think it has that mode. Generally cams like this will definitely not have that mode. You're talking (i beleive) about the IR-illuminated mode with a physical switch to swing the internal IR-filters out of the optical path thus enabling IR light to reach the sensor(s). - It doesn't have this feature.
(Hypergain isn't the same thing).

rgards

[Dave Campbell]

Any thoughts on this camera working with the HVR-M25U VTR?

Dave

[Heath McKnight]

Originally Posted by Dave Campbell

Any thoughts on this camera working with the HVR-M25U VTR?

Dave

I think because it does a 2:3 pulldown like the DVX100, it puts the 24p signal into a 60i stream (remove the pulldown, you get 24p). So you should be able to use the M25, M10 and M15 without any problems (60i, of course).

heath

[Boyd Ostroff]

Originally Posted by Craig Irving

Also, does anyone know if the tripod that is being launched with the V1U is better or worse than the Sony 1170RM.

At the press event all the V1's were on Sony tripods with remotes on the handles. I like Sony products, but those tripods appeared to be strictly consumer quality. They seemed pretty wobbly with plastic parts. Personally I wouldn't have any interest in them.

[Heath McKnight]

Check out our Tripod Forum here and post your questions:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=42

heath

[Craig Irving]

Thanks again for the input. I guess I won't get a Sony tripod. Once again it has been confirmed that there are better manufacturers to go with. I have been keeping my eye on the tripod forum, I just wanted some advice from the V1U buyers :)

Quick question on resolution again if you don't mind.

It is still 1080i, yet captures progressively at 24p. It is not 1080p (even though the sensors capture as such) because it gets downsampled to 1440x1080 (still progressive though, and 24p).

So essentially, it's not 1080i even. If I shoot in 24p there is no interlacing whatsoever... I guess the resolution lies somewhere in the middle? Somewhere between 720p and 1080p?

[Boyd Ostroff]

I'm sure someone will quickly correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the HDV spec includes 1920x1080 at all, only anamorphic 1440x1080 which gets stretched on playback.

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by Craig Irving

It is still 1080i, yet captures progressively at 24p.

Not exactly. It sounds like it works like the HVX does, in that it's scanning a progressive signal off the chip at all times, so it probably samples 1080/60p. Then that 60p signal gets split into fields to become 1080/60i (if your shooting mode is 1080/60i).

Then, apparently, the chip is re-clockable so that it can also scan the chip at 1080/24p and 1080/30p.

All those signals get RECORDED in a 1080/60i data stream.

It is not 1080p (even though the sensors capture as such) because it gets downsampled to 1440x1080 (still progressive though, and 24p).

Every HD format in common use does the same thing though. HDCAM, DVCPRO-HD, and HDV all downsample to 1440x1080 (or, in DV100's case, 1280x1080 in 60Hz modes) before recording.

If I shoot in 24p there is no interlacing whatsoever...

Not in the original scans, no. But in the recording, yes. The footage gets laid down on tape (or to hard disk, or HDMI or analog output) as 60 fields, not 24 frames. So it undergoes a 3:2 pulldown process, where each frame is recorded to two or three fields.

There's nothing wrong with that, the HVX does its 1080/24p mode the same way. And Canon does its 1080/24F mode the same way on HD-SDI or analog output; only difference is that Canon records to tape or firewire in straight 24p mode, not using pulldown. But for analog or HD-SDI output it has 2:3 pulldown in the signal.

Again, it's no big deal. It's the exact same thing that the DVX, XL2, SDX900, SPX800, DSR450WS, and all 24P standard-def camcorders do -- they all record 24p within a 60i data stream. The HVX 1080/24p mode and the V1U 1080/24p mode do the same thing in high-def but it's fundamentally the same process.

Your NLE will eventually (likely) be modified so it can extract the 24 frames out of the 60i sequence. Apple's updating FCP to do that for HVX footage, and there was mention of 1080/24p HDV in one of the "easy setup" listings so it may already have that capability for the Sony (or, that may instead be for the Canon, we won't likely know until 5.1.2 ships).

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

I'm sure someone will quickly correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the HDV spec includes 1920x1080 at all, only anamorphic 1440x1080 which gets stretched on playback.

You are correct.

[Craig Irving]

Very interesting. Thanks everyone.

Yeah, I didn't feel as though there was a drawback really. I was just trying to understand how it worked and to ensure I wasn't wrong on crucial details. Just wondering though, is it any better if the NLE ends up retrieving the 24P from the 60i signal rather than just processing it at 60i? It shouldn't change the look and feel as you said, it will simply do the transfer without the pulldown.

I guess this means a slight increase in quality? I'm sure it would have to be a very slight difference.

That's interesting to know about DVCProHD and HDCAM. I thought 1440x1080 was a HDV limitation and not something that plagued the other HD formats.

So when filmmakers output to an HD master, there isn't really a resolution conversion/interpolation then? It's just a physical format that changes and maybe color spacing? Typically what format do filmmakers export their HDV projects in if they are submitting to festivals. Is it typically DVCProHD?

[Bob Grant]

Most fesitvals seem to want HDCAM IF they can cope with HD at all.
No big drama, I think many post houses are equiped or soon will be to dub HDV to HDCAM.

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by Craig Irving

Just wondering though, is it any better if the NLE ends up retrieving the 24P from the 60i signal rather than just processing it at 60i?

Yes, there are several advantages. The first of which is, when working with the native frames, your overall workflow will be quicker and will take up less space.

Second, any titles or graphics or transitions you render will look "right" and won't end up with any sort of split-field situation. When working in a 24p timeline your graphics and titles will be rendered as 24p and will be properly "fixed" to the frames, whereas if you're on a 60i timeline your graphics will be created and rendered at 60i, and they won't flow the same as the rest of the image does.

Third, if you're mastering out to 24p (such as for DVD) it's so much easier/cleaner/nicer to do it from a 24p source.

Fourth, it's possible to get "off-cadence" when editing 24p in a 60i timeline; i.e., there's a specific pattern of odd/even that should be observed, but if you do a cut inbetween an odd/even pair you could end up throwing the cadence off, which would make it difficult or impossible to remove the pulldown later if you decide you need it.

Fifth, a transfer to film is easier, cleaner, and higher quality if going from a 24p source than from a telecine'd version of that same source, especially if the cadence is interrupted anywhere in the program.

Sixth, a transfer to PAL will be more consistent and probably result in notably higher quality if done from a 24p source rather than from a telecine'd 60i source.

It's so much more preferable to edit 24p as 24p. There are lots of reasons why every major NLE now offers 24p timelines in SD, and some also offer it in HD. Full 1080/24p support including 2:3 pulldown removal is presumed to be coming; Apple's already shown that they'll do it, EDIUS already does it for DVCPRO-HD and if they don't have it for HDV yet I'm sure they'll have it quickly. I believe CineForm will also remove out the pulldown, since CineFrame 24 is basically a 2:3 pulldown system as it's recorded.

So when filmmakers output to an HD master, there isn't really a resolution conversion/interpolation then? It's just a physical format that changes and maybe color spacing? Typically what format do filmmakers export their HDV projects in if they are submitting to festivals. Is it typically DVCProHD?

Changing between formats involves an uncompression/recompression cycle at the bare minimum, and usually a color space conversion too. DVCPRO-HD is 4:2:2, HDCAM is 3:1:1, HDV is 4:2:0 so there'll be some color space conversion going on. And it also depends on how the transfer is done; if it's through HD-SDI it may mean an up-rez of 1440 up to 1920 for HD-SDI transfer, and then the deck will scale back to 1440 for recording.

With that said, it always looks great and is nothing to really worry about.