1/4 inch sensors. Even harder to shallow DOF?

Bogdan Tyburczy · October 18th, 2006, 09:07 AM

Yes, but longer lens changes the perspective completely and it forces you to move the camera away from the object. Then we don't feel and don't perceive the images the same way as with the camera truly in close distance to objects.
There is a world of difference between true CU and zoom, even if both bring background out of focus similarly.

Tom Hardwick · October 18th, 2006, 10:21 AM

You miss the point Heath. It *is* hard, and the amount of zoom you have makes far less difference than the area of your chips.

Look at it this way. The max telephoto of the 12x zoom VX2100 (using 1"/3 chips) is 72 mm. The max telephoto of the 20x zoom FX7 (1"/4 chips) is 78 mm.

But the FX7 is f/2.8 at that focal length whereas the VX2100 is half a stop faster at f/2.4. There really is no contest - even with the 20x zoom the VX wins the differential focus competition hands down.

tom.

Heath McKnight · October 18th, 2006, 10:30 AM

We have the camera right now and I was able to do some shallow DOF by zooming in and opening up the iris.

heath

Bill Pryor · October 18th, 2006, 10:42 AM

If you zoom in tight enough you can get a shallow depth of field with any camera, but in practical use, you usually don't want to shoot that tight. If you want to check out something for yourself, zoom back to the widest angle you have, open up all the way, and move the camera in extremely close, so you have the same image area at wide angle as you did when zoomed in all the way. Your depth of field will be the same.

Tom Hardwick · October 18th, 2006, 10:52 AM

I know what you're saying Bill, but remember the FX7's lens is a good 1.5 stops faster at wide-angle than it is at telephoto. The dof will only be the same if you stop fown to f/2.8 at the wideangle end.

tom.

Steve Mullen · October 18th, 2006, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heath McKnight

We have the camera right now and I was able to do some shallow DOF by zooming in and opening up the iris.

heath

And, you can add an ND filter to enable you to open more.

BUT, remember, that you never want to shoot fully open with ANY lens.

And without doing the math -- you likely want to never close below f/5.6. This is also a function of chip size and it is f/8 for 1/3-inch cameras.

And, yes that means you should ideally shoot between f/3.6 and f/5.6. Just like a movie camera with a prime lens. :)

Lawrence Bansbach · October 19th, 2006, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

BUT, remember, that you never want to shoot fully open with ANY lens.

Except maybe high-speed primes at night, and that's only because you have to. And they're very expensive because they're designed to function well (as is technically possible) wide open. Depending on your settings, your DOF might be a couple of inches, requiring one darn good focus-puller.

Derek Lewis · October 21st, 2006, 03:41 PM

I have a wide angle lens on my Panny GS, and I can usually get it to do a nice portait setup (subject in focus, background out).

Phil Bloom · October 21st, 2006, 04:16 PM

what is a panasonic GS? If it is a 1/4 inch setup, surely you must be 3.5 miles away from your subject to get that effect!!

Just been viewing my first stuff shot on my Sony a1, letus35 adaptor on my hd tv. I was blown away by the fact I have lost very little detail, I just have a a really really beautiful shallow DOF now!

Tom Hardwick · October 22nd, 2006, 12:01 AM

Derek, you may well have a wide-angle converter on your GS Panasonic (with its 1"/6 chips) but you're not using it in the wide-angle mode when you get that differential focus effect, now are you? Your converter is a zoom-through, right?

So take it off and zoom some more - that way you'll get shallower depth of field - but of course you'll have to crop your portraits a lot more.

tom.

Phil Bloom · October 28th, 2006, 04:16 AM

will the v1 be able to have firmware updates as it has a memory stick card?

I'm thinking that at some point Sony might put in a flip image function for the many DOF film adaptors out there like JVC have done with their new progressive HD 200 and 250 cameras.

Is the Z1 able to be updated any way as it doesnt have a MS card slot?

Piotr Wozniacki · October 28th, 2006, 04:24 AM

http://digitalcontentproducer.com/hd...232006_mullen/

Phil Bloom · October 28th, 2006, 04:28 AM

my head is spinning

Tom Hardwick · October 28th, 2006, 06:13 AM

No Phil - the FX1 and Z1 don't have Memorystick slots. I find it a wierd managerial decision. Can't believe iot saved much money per unit.

Phil Bloom · October 28th, 2006, 06:31 AM

Hi Tom

I know it doesnt have a MS slot (i have one!) I was wondering if there was any way of updating firmware on the machine if Sony improved it...and if it would be possible to do such a thing through the MS on the new V1 or the A1?

October 18th, 2006, 10:30 AM	#33
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	We have the camera right now and I was able to do some shallow DOF by zooming in and opening up the iris. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

October 21st, 2006, 03:41 PM	#38
Derek Lewis Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: East Lansing, MI Posts: 45	I have a wide angle lens on my Panny GS, and I can usually get it to do a nice portait setup (subject in focus, background out). __________________ Mac forever. derlicte@gmail.com www.wasteddevelopment.com

October 21st, 2006, 04:16 PM	#39
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	what is a panasonic GS? If it is a 1/4 inch setup, surely you must be 3.5 miles away from your subject to get that effect!! Just been viewing my first stuff shot on my Sony a1, letus35 adaptor on my hd tv. I was blown away by the fact I have lost very little detail, I just have a a really really beautiful shallow DOF now! __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

October 28th, 2006, 04:16 AM	#41
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	will the v1 be able to have firmware updates as it has a memory stick card? I'm thinking that at some point Sony might put in a flip image function for the many DOF film adaptors out there like JVC have done with their new progressive HD 200 and 250 cameras. Is the Z1 able to be updated any way as it doesnt have a MS card slot? __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

October 28th, 2006, 04:24 AM	#42
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	have you seen this? http://digitalcontentproducer.com/hd...232006_mullen/

October 18th, 2006, 09:07 AM	#31
Bogdan Tyburczy Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 161	Yes, but longer lens changes the perspective completely and it forces you to move the camera away from the object. Then we don't feel and don't perceive the images the same way as with the camera truly in close distance to objects. There is a world of difference between true CU and zoom, even if both bring background out of focus similarly.

October 18th, 2006, 10:21 AM	#32
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	You miss the point Heath. It is hard, and the amount of zoom you have makes far less difference than the area of your chips. Look at it this way. The max telephoto of the 12x zoom VX2100 (using 1"/3 chips) is 72 mm. The max telephoto of the 20x zoom FX7 (1"/4 chips) is 78 mm. But the FX7 is f/2.8 at that focal length whereas the VX2100 is half a stop faster at f/2.4. There really is no contest - even with the 20x zoom the VX wins the differential focus competition hands down. tom.

October 18th, 2006, 10:42 AM	#34
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	If you zoom in tight enough you can get a shallow depth of field with any camera, but in practical use, you usually don't want to shoot that tight. If you want to check out something for yourself, zoom back to the widest angle you have, open up all the way, and move the camera in extremely close, so you have the same image area at wide angle as you did when zoomed in all the way. Your depth of field will be the same.

October 18th, 2006, 10:52 AM	#35
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	I know what you're saying Bill, but remember the FX7's lens is a good 1.5 stops faster at wide-angle than it is at telephoto. The dof will only be the same if you stop fown to f/2.8 at the wideangle end. tom.

October 22nd, 2006, 12:01 AM	#40
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Derek, you may well have a wide-angle converter on your GS Panasonic (with its 1"/6 chips) but you're not using it in the wide-angle mode when you get that differential focus effect, now are you? Your converter is a zoom-through, right? So take it off and zoom some more - that way you'll get shallower depth of field - but of course you'll have to crop your portraits a lot more. tom.

October 28th, 2006, 04:28 AM	#43
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	my head is spinning __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

October 28th, 2006, 06:13 AM	#44
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	No Phil - the FX1 and Z1 don't have Memorystick slots. I find it a wierd managerial decision. Can't believe iot saved much money per unit.

October 28th, 2006, 06:31 AM	#45
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	Hi Tom I know it doesnt have a MS slot (i have one!) I was wondering if there was any way of updating firmware on the machine if Sony improved it...and if it would be possible to do such a thing through the MS on the new V1 or the A1? __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net