Images of 30P, 24p, and 60i at DVinfo.net

Steve Mullen · December 18th, 2006, 08:08 PM

Here are three images. Is one of significantly lower quality? Which one?

If you can't see a difference, then 30P has no problem in my prototype V1U.

Juan Oropeza · December 18th, 2006, 08:19 PM

I like pic # 1 the best!

Pic #3 seems a bit soft.

Adam Palomer · December 18th, 2006, 08:27 PM

Steve,

From left to right, #2 looks the sharpest, followed by #1 then #3, with #3 being the softest.

Thomas Smet · December 18th, 2006, 11:47 PM

#1 looks clean while I can notice some of the oil paint look in images #2 and #3. In the wood grain image 1 looks more natural while 2 and 3 take on kind of a cartoon look. Actually when I look very close I think all 3 images have this it is just it is at different levels.

On 2 and 3 do any of us think wood grain looks like that? 1 looks a lot more natural to me but there is still something "funny" about it. Look at the far left of all three images at the area around the grey squares. That does not look natural. I have worked with 35mm footage and all types of HDV footage for compositing and I can tell you that these images look funky. How would keying work on something like this when the edges get enhanced? We would have dancing edges.

One last thing I will point out is the chroma sampling in all 3 images. Notice the alternating lines of chroma due to the fact that even progressive is encoded as an interlaced stream. This will also make keying a little bit harder if you are going to a progressive source such as BD, HD-DVD or film. Your NLE will have to know how to compensate for the alternating lines of chroma. Clearly whatever program Steve used to take these stills couldn't yet tell the difference so it thinks they are all interlaced and the chroma looks like that. You really notice it in the reds. If you plan on creating a 1080p HD disk of some type the chroma will need to be sorted in the correct order.

Steve I think you are using FCP. Is there an option to treat the footage as non interlaced or interlaced like there is with Liquid?

Philip Williams · December 19th, 2006, 12:02 AM

The wood grain in the third image seems quite blurry/smudgy...
The second image looks to be perhaps overly sharpened.

But nice clean blacks. Colors seem very nice.

Steve Mullen · December 19th, 2006, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

One last thing I will point out is the chroma sampling in all 3 images. Notice the alternating lines of chroma due to the fact that even progressive is encoded as an interlaced stream.

I've forgotton the details of your worry about field encoded MPEG, but all 1080i ATSC has this issue -- and yet I've yet to see any huge protest about this as being a big quality issue. There are many other interlace problems, and this one is just one more. It seems to me that you are simply pointing-out one of the many advantages of progressive.

In the case of Sony 24p, 25p, and 30p -- I don't see that these modes will look any worse than 50i or 60i. And, that really is the only important point to someone buying a V1.

It seems irrelevant to point-out that 720p offers better chroma. It also offers 60p. But, if folks want 720p they obviously aren't going to buy any Sony camcorder. So I'm not sure why you keep pointing this issue on the V1 thread.

Steve Mullen · December 19th, 2006, 01:33 AM

FROM: Zsolt Gordos

Hi Steve, certainly these shots look much better than any of the V1E shots and none of them show the "oil painting" effect. The 3rd photo is visibly softer than the others -- I wonder which setting has been used.

I've posted a new Image 3.

Zsolt Gordos · December 19th, 2006, 01:40 AM

The new 3rd shot looks better and now similar to 1 and 2

could you please reveal settings per photo?

Steve Mullen · December 19th, 2006, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsolt Gordos

The new 3rd shot looks better and now similar to 1 and 2

could you please reveal settings per photo?

In 24 hours -- waiting for next day in the UK.

Steve

Zsolt Gordos · December 19th, 2006, 01:46 AM

Ok...

Starbucks began to lose share price as Coffee Bean is getting popular among videographers :P

Steve Mullen · December 19th, 2006, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsolt Gordos

Ok...

Starbucks began to lose share price as Coffee Bean is getting popular among videographers :P

Coffee Bean's my spot in Las Vegas. Here are pix from K.L. Malaysia.

Drew Long · December 19th, 2006, 02:30 AM

Going by the similarities between 202 & 203, I'd say the progressive pics do suffer a little bit of the smudging in the V1U. Not as bad as the 25P pics shown by others. The wood grain does look funky as Thomas points out. Were these pics sharpened at all?

Tony Tremble · December 19th, 2006, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Coffee Bean's my spot in Las Vegas. Here are pix from K.L. Malaysia.

I had a Black Forest iced coffee (with cream!) in that very Coffee bean 3 months ago. Small world...

TT

Thomas Smet · December 19th, 2006, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

I've forgotton the details of your worry about field encoded MPEG, but all 1080i ATSC has this issue -- and yet I've yet to see any huge protest about this as being a big quality issue. There are many other interlace problems, and this one is just one more. It seems to me that you are simply pointing-out one of the many advantages of progressive.

In the case of Sony 24p, 25p, and 30p -- I don't see that these modes will look any worse than 50i or 60i. And, that really is the only important point to someone buying a V1.

It seems irrelevant to point-out that 720p offers better chroma. It also offers 60p. But, if folks want 720p they obviously aren't going to buy any Sony camcorder. So I'm not sure why you keep pointing this issue on the V1 thread.

It doesn't have to be just 720p. the F modes from the Canon HDV cameras use a true progressive encoding so the blocks of chroma are cleaner.

This isn't usually an issue with interlaced video becuase it is meant to be shown as interlaced or split out as 60p. In this case the chroma will look normal on an interlaced display or as 60p. Where it is noticed is when we try to put progressive into interlaced which for the most part is only done on DVD's and now the SONY V1.

Where an issue can come up is when you want to process those frames as progressive such as keying in a NLE as a progressive timeline or if you plan on going to film which is progressive. Even if you plan on going back to a medium that will be shown on a HDTV or interlaced display the keying will be better with 720p or Canon F modes.

If live capturing from component or HDMI will be used then this will not be an issue at all.

I did not invent this issue. Adam Wilt has written about it a few times in some of his articles. If you do not trust me on this subject then ask Adam Wilt about it.

Steve Mullen · December 19th, 2006, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

It doesn't have to be just 720p. the F modes from the Canon HDV cameras use a true progressive encoding so the blocks of chroma are cleaner.

Sorry, I keep forgetting Canon -- not because they aren't good, but the H1's price, ergonomics, and styling turn me off. (And, the A1's viewfinder is too small for me.) But, you are 100% correct -- there is an alternative 1080/24p system that doesn't have this issue.

Now I understand where you are coming from -- sorry I totally didn't catch it at all. Me very bad. Now I'm all ears. Can you explain the 4:2:0 MPEG-2 interlace problem again, please.

I'm not yet especially interested in the keying issue, but in these two topics:

1) without yet giving away which pix is which -- one of these images does, in fact, have more detail. I'm wondering how/if the chroma issue could cause a difference in DETAIL -- in a still image grabbed from FCP (you were correct) and/or viewed as video.

2) how this issue does not affect 1080i when is is viewed on one's HDTV.

PS: How do I use Liquid to grab better images. I'll post them as soon as I grab them.

December 19th, 2006, 12:02 AM	#5
Philip Williams Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Snellville, Georgia Posts: 614	The wood grain in the third image seems quite blurry/smudgy... The second image looks to be perhaps overly sharpened. But nice clean blacks. Colors seem very nice. __________________ www.philipwilliams.com

December 19th, 2006, 01:33 AM	#7
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	FROM: Zsolt Gordos Hi Steve, certainly these shots look much better than any of the V1E shots and none of them show the "oil painting" effect. The 3rd photo is visibly softer than the others -- I wonder which setting has been used. I've posted a new Image 3. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

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December 18th, 2006, 08:08 PM	#1
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	Images of 30P, 24p, and 60i Here are three images. Is one of significantly lower quality? Which one? If you can't see a difference, then 30P has no problem in my prototype V1U. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c Last edited by Steve Mullen; December 19th, 2006 at 01:34 AM.

December 18th, 2006, 08:19 PM	#2
Juan Oropeza Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 32	I like pic # 1 the best! Pic #3 seems a bit soft.

December 18th, 2006, 08:27 PM	#3
Adam Palomer Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Summit, NJ Posts: 169	Steve, From left to right, #2 looks the sharpest, followed by #1 then #3, with #3 being the softest.

December 18th, 2006, 11:47 PM	#4
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	#1 looks clean while I can notice some of the oil paint look in images #2 and #3. In the wood grain image 1 looks more natural while 2 and 3 take on kind of a cartoon look. Actually when I look very close I think all 3 images have this it is just it is at different levels. On 2 and 3 do any of us think wood grain looks like that? 1 looks a lot more natural to me but there is still something "funny" about it. Look at the far left of all three images at the area around the grey squares. That does not look natural. I have worked with 35mm footage and all types of HDV footage for compositing and I can tell you that these images look funky. How would keying work on something like this when the edges get enhanced? We would have dancing edges. One last thing I will point out is the chroma sampling in all 3 images. Notice the alternating lines of chroma due to the fact that even progressive is encoded as an interlaced stream. This will also make keying a little bit harder if you are going to a progressive source such as BD, HD-DVD or film. Your NLE will have to know how to compensate for the alternating lines of chroma. Clearly whatever program Steve used to take these stills couldn't yet tell the difference so it thinks they are all interlaced and the chroma looks like that. You really notice it in the reds. If you plan on creating a 1080p HD disk of some type the chroma will need to be sorted in the correct order. Steve I think you are using FCP. Is there an option to treat the footage as non interlaced or interlaced like there is with Liquid?

December 19th, 2006, 01:40 AM	#8
Zsolt Gordos Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Budapest, Hungary Posts: 414	The new 3rd shot looks better and now similar to 1 and 2 could you please reveal settings per photo?

December 19th, 2006, 01:46 AM	#10
Zsolt Gordos Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Budapest, Hungary Posts: 414	Ok... Starbucks began to lose share price as Coffee Bean is getting popular among videographers :P

December 19th, 2006, 02:30 AM	#12
Drew Long Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 64	Going by the similarities between 202 & 203, I'd say the progressive pics do suffer a little bit of the smudging in the V1U. Not as bad as the 25P pics shown by others. The wood grain does look funky as Thomas points out. Were these pics sharpened at all?