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Sony HVR-V1 / HDR-FX7
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Old December 24th, 2006, 04:51 PM   #1
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Capturing via V1 HDMI with Blackmagic Intensity card

I am looking for a solution to capture footage from V1. Having read about HDV editing "processor hungry" character, I consider capturing my footage into DVCproHD and edit in that codec, using hardware support.
I am aware that once HDV chip has been used, the quality of the clip wont be better than HDV, even if captured via HDMI.
However regarding time (and cost!) saving, a HDMI capture card looks a good solution, vs capturing via firewire, edit in HDV and wait hours.

I am also aware that AJA Kona and Blackmagic Decklink cards do this trick. But they are pretty pricey compared to Intensity card.
My question is: can Intensity do the above described capture same fast as the other cards? Is there anything else to consider?

I use FCP 5.1.2 on a G5 dual 2 Ghz

Thanks
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Old December 24th, 2006, 07:07 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zsolt Gordos
I am looking for a solution to capture footage from V1. Having read about HDV editing "processor hungry" character, I consider capturing my footage into DVCproHD and edit in that codec, using hardware support.
I am aware that once HDV chip has been used, the quality of the clip wont be better than HDV, even if captured via HDMI.
However regarding time (and cost!) saving, a HDMI capture card looks a good solution, vs capturing via firewire, edit in HDV and wait hours.

I am also aware that AJA Kona and Blackmagic Decklink cards do this trick. But they are pretty pricey compared to Intensity card.
My question is: can Intensity do the above described capture same fast as the other cards? Is there anything else to consider?

I use FCP 5.1.2 on a G5 dual 2 Ghz

Thanks

Yes the Intensity will work great. However the dual 2 ghz G5 won't be able to capture your footage uncompressed. Capturing uncompressed footage will require a Mac Pro dual Xeon system with at least a 2, but preferably 4 drive raid system.

You can also purchase a Convergent HD Connect MI HDMI -> HD SDI adaptor and an HD SDI card and capture with the quicktime codec compressed somewhat to reduce the HD requirements. This will work fine with the your G5, but it is a much more expensive solution.

Last edited by Dave F. Nelson; December 24th, 2006 at 11:12 PM.
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Old December 25th, 2006, 07:14 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Nelson
Yes the Intensity will work great. However the dual 2 ghz G5 won't be able to capture your footage uncompressed. Capturing uncompressed footage will require a Mac Pro dual Xeon system with at least a 2, but preferably 4 drive raid system.

You can also purchase a Convergent HD Connect MI HDMI -> HD SDI adaptor and an HD SDI card and capture with the quicktime codec compressed somewhat to reduce the HD requirements. This will work fine with the your G5, but it is a much more expensive solution.
Thanks Dave, actually I plan to add an external RAID via e-SATA PCI card. Would that work with the Intensity card?

Regarding Convergent Design's MI card, the folks at Convergent Design say it is not yet out, expected delivery in January...
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Old December 25th, 2006, 10:12 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zsolt Gordos
I am looking for a solution to capture footage from V1. Having read about HDV editing "processor hungry" character, I consider capturing my footage into DVCproHD and edit in that codec, using hardware support.
I am aware that once HDV chip has been used, the quality of the clip wont be better than HDV, even if captured via HDMI.
However regarding time (and cost!) saving, a HDMI capture card looks a good solution, vs capturing via firewire, edit in HDV and wait hours.

I am also aware that AJA Kona and Blackmagic Decklink cards do this trick. But they are pretty pricey compared to Intensity card.
My question is: can Intensity do the above described capture same fast as the other cards? Is there anything else to consider?

I use FCP 5.1.2 on a G5 dual 2 Ghz

Thanks
I have an Intensity card on the way but I am pretty sure its compatible only with the new Mac Pro Intel machines.
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Old December 25th, 2006, 04:28 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zsolt Gordos
I am looking for a solution to capture footage from V1. Having read about HDV editing "processor hungry" character, I consider capturing my footage into DVCproHD and edit in that codec, using hardware support.
I am aware that once HDV chip has been used, the quality of the clip wont be better than HDV, even if captured via HDMI.
However regarding time (and cost!) saving, a HDMI capture card looks a good solution, vs capturing via firewire, edit in HDV and wait hours.

I am also aware that AJA Kona and Blackmagic Decklink cards do this trick. But they are pretty pricey compared to Intensity card.
My question is: can Intensity do the above described capture same fast as the other cards? Is there anything else to consider?

I use FCP 5.1.2 on a G5 dual 2 Ghz

Thanks
I'm not a Mac or FCP user so maybe my comments are way out of line here but it sure seems to me that capturing native HDV and editing that is way cheaper and faster than going to all the expense needed to capture DVCProHD. Sure DVCProHD being less compressed will strain a CPU less, just as I've seen with the Sony YUV codec compared to the DV25 codec. However sure the CPU doesn't work as hard but you need a fast RAID else you've replaced one bottleneck with a different one.
You need to consider that your current setup can capture HDV if it can capture DV. Capturing DVCProHD does mean much faster data rates (100Mb V 25Mb) so your disks need more speed and way more storage capacity.
I'd also imagine doing a capture using Intensity means you've lost any chance of getting source TC, that may or may not amount to much to you.
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Old December 25th, 2006, 07:35 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zsolt Gordos
I use FCP 5.1.2 on a G5 dual 2 Ghz

Thanks
The Intensity card is a PCI-e card and will not work in your PCI-X Mac.
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Old December 25th, 2006, 10:32 PM   #7
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I own a Mac Pro and a Decklink HD card. In my experience, HDV quality is actually *sharper* than DVCPRO HD. Sure, I'd not recommend HDV which is a 25MB/sec codec over a 100MB/sec codec. But, if you're capturing via a board, the point is to bypass HDV or other lowly codecs. It's that I noticed a lot of aliasing and a "digital-look" to the footage with DVCPRO HD. I don't like it - I bet a 100MB/sec 4:2:2 HDV spec would be much better than the current 100Mb/sec DVCPRO HD.

I'd recommend, yes, doing RAID and capturing in an alternative to both HDV and DVCPRO HD.

Say, uncompressed 8bit 4:2:2. Be aware: the Intensity does not support 10 bit.
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Old December 26th, 2006, 04:02 AM   #8
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codec

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Ducon
In my experience, HDV quality is actually *sharper* than DVCPRO HD. I noticed a lot of aliasing and a "digital-look" to the footage with DVCPRO HD. I don't like it - .
Interesting!

Barring a raid, and capturing this way,

Robert, would you say capturing in plain HDV - normally in the camera to
tape - but editing with one of the intermediate codec solutions, would give a FINAL better look than dvcprohd? {sharper and better colors, less artifacts }

What about if alpha, and/or color correction are needed?


Is it mainly the codec, or is it also the Sony hvr-v1 has 1980 x 1080 resolution, vs the HVX 200 having only 1440x 1080 resolution tops? { correct me if I'm wrong please, anyone. }

I was very interested in the hvx200. But, I did read one or two posts where the mood in the dvcpro camp seems to be down, after these new a1 and v1 cameras are out.

thanks
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Old December 26th, 2006, 09:14 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David W. Jones
The Intensity card is a PCI-e card and will not work in your PCI-X Mac.
Thanks David, I am aware, planning to buy a Mac Pro once it comes out with a Blu Ray writer.
In the meantime I try to gather as much info as I can - to make the reight decision between AJA or Decklink and Intensity
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Old December 26th, 2006, 09:39 AM   #10
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Final Cut Pro can handle native HDV editing, from version 5 and up. Other than Vegas, I don't know of any NLE that can remove the pulldown, but if Apple keeps up their tradition of releasing new versions of Final Cut at NAB every other year, there may be a Version 6 in April. I'm speculating pretty heavily here, but if there is a version 6, maybe it'll include 24f support and remove the pulldown from v1 footage.

No real need, by the way, to go uncompressed HD editing with HDV. DVCpro HD is even MORE processor-intensive. I could edit well enough on a 1.6 ghz G5 single processor and even faster on a dual dual-core G5.

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Old December 26th, 2006, 10:32 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heath McKnight
No real need, by the way, to go uncompressed HD editing with HDV. DVCpro HD is even MORE processor-intensive. I could edit well enough on a 1.6 ghz G5 single processor and even faster on a dual dual-core G5.

heath
????

DVCproHD moreso than HDV? You are talking if you have to transcode from something other than DVCproHD first right?

You are not talking native versus native..correct?
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Old December 26th, 2006, 11:25 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Boswell
????

DVCproHD moreso than HDV? You are talking if you have to transcode from something other than DVCproHD first right?

You are not talking native versus native..correct?
Unless I misread what was written earlier, capturing HDV then changing it to DVCPro HD, or any form of HD that has less compression, will be more processor-intensive. Fortunately, Apple cuts native HDV and DVCPro HD, nice and clean.

I sometimes will master my HDV footage in HDCAM, and to do that, I create a new timeline and change the Compressor settings to Photojpeg at either 100% quality (10 bit uncompressed) or 75% (8 bit uncompressed). 75% is slightly more compression and easier to deal with. But even on my G5 Quad, hitting play on the Photojpeg timeline can really slow things down.

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Old December 26th, 2006, 12:03 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heath McKnight
No real need, by the way, to go uncompressed HD editing with HDV. DVCpro HD is even MORE processor-intensive. I could edit well enough on a 1.6 ghz G5 single processor and even faster on a dual dual-core G5.

heath
There is a great need to edit uncompressed or at least lightly compressed footage rather than settling for HDV or DVCPROHD. HDMI output recorded directly from the camera head live, rather than being compressed into HDV MPEG Long GOPs is a good deal better if quality of the output and/or a filmout is your goal.

The key is recording live, not playing the HDV output through the HDMI port which would defeat the purpose of using HDMI in the first place.

This is similar to the way high-end camera systems work.

If you have the computer resources, your uncompressed footage will be superior to HDCAM output which is still compressed. And of course the output is full 1920 x 1080 4:2:2 10/8 bit colorspace.

The problem is that this method is resource intensive. The Mac Pro with at least 2 raid drives would be the minimum configuration necessary to do this. Older non-Intel Macs simply couldn't do it. Neither can PCs unless a similar configuration is used.

However, the benefits of uncompressed editing are that the output rivals much more expensive systems with no artifacts.

There are, however a few problems. According to DSE, the V1U outputs 10 bit color but the 2 least significant bits are set to null, so it is really 8 bit color. Also, unless you use software that can remove the 2:3 pulldown, during injest, your footage will be destined for 24p over 60i for broadcast, DVD or HD DVD/Blu-ray.

If you use an HDMI -> HD SDI converter such as the Convergent HD Connect MI, you can injest full 1920 x 1080 4:2:2 10 bit footage with the Aja Kona card, or Xena on the PC, and can remove the 2-3 pulldown to obtain lightly compressed 24p output using Aja software. This saves space and requires less system resources but costs more money. This configuration will also work well with the G5.

When talking about HDMI output, some are interested in high quality on the cheap so-to-speak. Others are interested in uncompromised output, but money isn't that much of an issue. So money is often the main consideration.

Upgrading from a G5 to a Mac Pro is a pricey proposition. Adding HD SDI to a G5 yields high quality output and is much less than the cost of upgrading to a Mac Pro.

So Aja HD SDI on the G5 dual with a Convergent HD Connect MI converting the output from the V1U from HDMI -> HD SDI may be the ticket for many.

This method is substantially superior to either HDV or DVCPROHD.

Just my humble opinion.
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Old December 26th, 2006, 12:36 PM   #14
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Dave,

I gave a solution to converting HDV to uncompressed HD in Final Cut Pro; it looks good! The other solution may not be HDMI, but component and an uncompressed HD card, like DeckLink.

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Old December 28th, 2006, 11:57 AM   #15
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Keep it clear:

You can shoot uncompressed only if you are connected with the cam to a computer with fast RAID system and a component or HDMI card. So this is studio only.

If you shoot HDV on tape the compression is there. If you go out from camera tape --> component or HDMI, the compression is there already.

To prevent more degradition in editing you can do a rough cut in HDV.
Switch the compressor setting in the FCP sequence to AIC or Uncompressed. Let FCP render the sequence, it's a fast operation, and then apply color correction and other effects.

You can choose for another intermediate to edit in, like Sheer or others.
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