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Sony HVR-V1 / HDR-FX7
Pro and consumer versions of this Sony 3-CMOS HDV camcorder.


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Old January 22nd, 2007, 02:36 PM   #16
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Well, this one year would be a little too long to wait....In the meantime people (like me) would replace the cam and buy another one - but then that cam will remain for a couple of years - so I think Sony will miss the train.

And who knows what is cooking in the kitchen of the competitors? Maybe a true progressive Canon? A 1080p HVX?

They should be a little creative now, e.g. think of the option of replacing V1Es with V1Us for customers who like that. I for one would get a V1U right away if there was such an option. One 24p instead of 25p? Big deal.
And 30p as a plus...
btw Canon offers 50 and 60 in the same cam as an upgrade...
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Old January 22nd, 2007, 02:57 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Williams
What in the world makes a 50i/25P camera hose the progressive image....
I've never understood how a supposedly native progressive sensor makes its way into an interlaced only cam (the FX7) with such stellar results? Yes it's been confirmed the acquisition is progressive but then why the problems with progressive mode? I confess to being cynical but I would really like to run a V1 progressive versus interlaced test of grab(s) of an ISO 12233 resolution chart or slant edge test through the Imatest MTF50 software to prove conclusively whether or not the resolution takes a small hit in the "P" mode. The oil paint artifact is likely a consequence of mpeg filtering, and it doesn't seem logical to me why it should be worse in "P" mode unless the premise that the capture is taking place progressively is wrong. If the capture was interlaced or in-cam processed there would be a small but expected drop in vertical resolution. The resolution drop in the Canon XH-A1/G1's "F" mode would be virtually unnoticeable eyeballing a chart but the Imatest software can be counted upon to pinpoint a 10-12% drop.
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Old January 22nd, 2007, 05:09 PM   #18
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Tom,

Even the 24P and 30P of the US model differ to 60i. There is a small difference but no one have given a believable reason why I should be better than P from a natively progressive chip.

It is somewhat ironic that Canon can produce a high quality Progressive image from an interlaced camera and Sony can't produce 25P from a progressive chip. DOH!!! You couldn't make it up if you tried!

Thankfully this has happened when there are other cameras of equivalent quality to purchase instead. Canon must be delighted.

TT
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Old January 22nd, 2007, 05:33 PM   #19
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I wonder how Sony Australia will handle the V1P situation here?! Consumer laws here are not as consumer-protective as their UK counterparts.

I'm very disappointed in this turn of events especially as I just took delivery of my V1P yesterday and have only got as far as familiarising myself with the camera and the manual and shooting a few minutes of test footage (the 1080i footage is nothing short of stunning on my 55" plasma via HDMI connection).
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Old January 22nd, 2007, 05:39 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Alex Leith
And needing progressive scan is part of that landscape.
Absolutely agree! But not low remporal rate P with horrible motion judder. That's why 50p and 60p are the future from all camcorders. JVC offers it today. And so does Panasonic. There are real alternatives.
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Old January 22nd, 2007, 05:51 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Tremble
Tom,

Even the 24P and 30P of the US model differ to 60i. There is a small difference but no one have (sic) given a believable reason why I should be better than P from a natively progressive chip.
Tony I've explained it several times. You seem unable, or unwilling, to understand HOW the V1 works.

There is nothing strange going on except in the PAL model -- which no longer exists. So the issue is closed.

-------------------

Quote:
The oil paint artifact is likely a consequence of mpeg filtering, and it doesn't seem logical to me why it should be worse in "P" mode unless the premise that the capture is taking place progressively is wrong.
This repeated "maybe its not really progressive" is nonsense. It is. Moreover, if it was MPEG-2 filtering then it would exist in the USA model -- and it doesn't.

Whatever the reason for the PAL model's problem is now irrelevant since that model is now only 50i. So the issue is closed.

Anything more is pure speculation.
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Old January 23rd, 2007, 12:34 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
Whatever the reason for the PAL model's problem is now irrelevant since that model is now only 50i. So the issue is closed.

Anything more is pure speculation.
One important matter however, remains beyond speculation - and it is pure mathematics.
Europe customers should pay 40% more for 50% less shooting options today. This will give hard times for Sony to explain away.
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Old January 23rd, 2007, 01:39 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
Tony I've explained it several times. You seem unable, or unwilling, to understand HOW the V1 works.
With all due respect I simply don't believe your explanation is correct.

Even if your explanation regarding how I is created from twice as much information were correct in a static scene there would be no difference between what is capture in P or I. Same information hitting the encoder in both modes. Why would there be a sharpness difference?

This is precisely why I don't believe your explanation. Anyway you are right, there is no point chewing the cud over this any more since we've become second class customers to Sony.

Will you be able to find out why the EU models couldn't produce 25P from your contacts? I think some of us would like to know out of curiosity.

TT
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Old January 23rd, 2007, 03:03 AM   #24
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I'd be keen for an understandable explanation as well. This whole thing is very weird, and not like Sony at all. We in PAL land, most of the world, have been let down badly. I expect they will announce a PAL 25p V1 in 6 months time when the hardware issues have been properly resolved.

Does anyone remember when the Z1 came out, Sony commited itself to a radical and much appreciated 'One world, One Camera' policy of having both NTSC and PAL in all it's pro camera's. It delivered with the XDCAM HD and the Z1. But when the V1 came out, no such thing. So it seems they recognised a problem from the begining. I wonder if it has to do specifically with the CMOS chip's processing?
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Old January 23rd, 2007, 04:11 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
Absolutely agree! But not low remporal rate P with horrible motion judder. That's why 50p and 60p are the future from all camcorders. JVC offers it today. And so does Panasonic. There are real alternatives.
I think you're right.

Roll on 1080p150... then the 50Hz and 60Hz countries can share a common frame rate...

:-D
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Old January 23rd, 2007, 04:54 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Tremble
With all due respect I simply don't believe your explanation is correct.

Even if your explanation regarding how I is created from twice as much information were correct in a static scene there would be no difference between what is capture in P or I. Same information hitting the encoder in both modes. Why would there be a sharpness difference?
Because the aliasing filters may be set for I and for P scanning. I'm assuming in I mode the filter is set higher than for P. Hence the very tiny difference in detail.

The filters act on the image -- moving or not.

Remember, a very slight -- maybe 1 or 2 clicks of Sharpness -- is the ONLY difference between P and I for the V1U.

Your "oil paint" and "ants" issues -- are a current V1E problem. I've got no idea what's going on and have never claimed to understand it.
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Last edited by Steve Mullen; January 23rd, 2007 at 06:23 AM.
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Old January 23rd, 2007, 05:05 AM   #27
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Will it NEVER be fixed?

I've just received an email from the UK that disputes "the will NEVER be fixed" claim. My information is that Sony has not given-up fixing the V1E.

If, Sony has removed 25p from the specs, it may be purely for legal reasons until it is fixed -- or not fixed.

I remember too well the JVC SSE issue from the Euro areas that caused mass confusion. The problem took a month to fix and it was only a setup issue. This may be a tougher one and take more time. Or, it may be as simple as a bad firmware that needs fixing.

My feeling is this thread should fully be replaced by DSE or Chris WITH a comment that dvinfo is awaiting clarification from Sony itself. Right now it's pure speculation by one poster who has been told something by one person at Sony.

Until Sony makes an announcement, by definition everything posted is speculation.
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Last edited by Steve Mullen; January 23rd, 2007 at 06:28 AM.
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Old January 23rd, 2007, 05:16 AM   #28
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Steve

Sony Prime Support phoned me yesterday and said the fix that we have is the final fix. No more fixes. He was quite clear.

My dealer rang shortly afterward and confirmed that too. Believe me, I made sure that this was the final position regarding the state of 25P.

The V1E is being repositioned as a cheap Z1E. It will not be sold as a 1080P camera anymore just 50i.

TT
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Old January 23rd, 2007, 05:23 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
Because the aliasing filters may be set for I and for P scanning. I'm assuming in I mode the filter is set higher than for P. Hence the very tiny difference in detail.
Steve, with all due respect I don't think such "tiny" difference could make Sony decided to drop what they originally marketed V1E over FX7 into indie market (while definitely if I've bought V1 and make complaint to my Malaysia Sony, they might say the similar thing that I just need to lower some threshole, then I have to painfully convince myself to accept the fact that I am paying less then USD5000 for a big toy, not a USD 50,000 pro gear so don't expect anymore, it's a mercy from Sony to make me a big toy).

And based on your idea above, since "I" *may* have aliasing filter set higher then "P" then you have just lead to a result that "I" shouldn't have more resolution then P. "aliasing" should make the picture look much *smooth* but less sharpness, but now we have "I" look more sharpness and "P" look like painting (okay, it is the past now since there is not "P" anymore).

And I don't think any of us is speculating here, it is simply make no logical sense where PAL user is buying a CMOS progressive camera but it doesn't have progressive capability. Imagine it is V1U having the same problem, I believe you will ask the same question too.
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Old January 23rd, 2007, 06:21 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Ing Poh Hii
Steve, with all due respect I don't think such "tiny" difference could make Sony decided to drop what they originally marketed V1E over FX7 into indie market (while definitely if I've bought V1 and make complaint to my Malaysia
You REALLY need to read posts more closely. I'm only commenting on the V1U.

I've got no idea what's going on with the V1E. And, frankly, none of the V1E posters have anything valid to say about our perfectly functioning V1U.

Moreover your comment that "aliasing" should make the picture look much *smooth* but less sharpness," is 100% incorrect.

Sony is well known for keeping the cut-off frequency high which allows a bit of aliasing which makes diagonals LESS smooth, but also allows more detail. You've got your understanding of aliasing backwards.
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