so in 24p i edit in 60i? at DVinfo.net

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Sony HVR-V1 / HDR-FX7
Pro and consumer versions of this Sony 3-CMOS HDV camcorder.


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Old February 6th, 2007, 06:37 PM   #1
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so in 24p i edit in 60i?

on the v1u do i edit 24p in the 60i timeline?
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Old February 6th, 2007, 07:04 PM   #2
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My understanding is that the V-1 outputs 24p in a 60i stream, so it should be compatable with a regular 60i timeline.
Some editing software, and, I think, the Cineform Aspect software can remove the 3:2 pulldown and you can edit the footage on a true 24p timeline.
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Old February 9th, 2007, 08:34 AM   #3
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Isnt this just HDV at 24p?
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Old February 9th, 2007, 11:58 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noel Evans
Isnt this just HDV at 24p?
No. The V1 only outputs i60 stream. The p24 video is encoded in that stream with a cadence of 2:3. Y

ou will need to remove the redundant frames and combine the fields into frames to edit in true p24.

I'm using Avid and it doesn't support the V1 at this time so true p24 for me isn't an option right now.
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Old February 9th, 2007, 05:05 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Chris Medico
No. The V1 only outputs i60 stream. The p24 video is encoded in that stream with a cadence of 2:3. Y

You will need to remove the redundant frames and combine the fields into frames to edit in true p24.

I'm using Avid and it doesn't support the V1 at this time so true p24 for me isn't an option right now.
Unless you are going to film -- you do not need to edit in "true" 24p.

Why?

Because if you not going to film you must put the pulldown back when you go to videotape such as HDV, HDCAM, DVCPROHD, D-5, DV, DigiBeta, Beta SP, etc.

Ideally you should not cut to a judder frame, and if your NLE will let you view BY FRAMES that's EZ to do as you can see the mixed frames.

Not to say "true" 24 isn't great, but you shouldn't feel you can't edit V1 24p.
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Old February 9th, 2007, 05:13 PM   #6
 
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Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
Unless you are going to film -- you do not need to edit in "true" 24p.

Why?

Because if you not going to film you must put the pulldown back when you go to videotape such as HDV, HDCAM, DVCPROHD, D-5, DV, DigiBeta, Beta SP, etc.
Conversely, most folks will be delivering to DVD where the pulldown will be inserted by a non-compliant display or DVD player. Editing/delivering in 24p offers savings of up to 25% of disc space, allowing for longer time or higher bitrate or both.
Steve is correct however, if you're printing back to tape, it will be necessary to either insert pulldown, or edit in a 60i timeline.
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Old February 9th, 2007, 06:38 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle
Editing/delivering in 24p offers savings of up to 25% of disc space, allowing for longer time or higher bitrate or both.

Steve is correct however, if you're printing back to tape, it will be necessary to either insert pulldown, or edit in a 60i timeline.
1) The vast majority of video shot world-wide is 50i/60i and so folks are not creating 24p DVDs, yet they have no serious issues with either space or bit-rate. With 9GB DVD+R DL media -- space is no longer a big deal.

2) If you shoot 24p for a film look, that look has 2 components: 24fps motion judder plus 2:3 cadence judder. If you remove pulldown AND burn a 24p DVD AND have a 480p output DVD player AND have a TV with 480p input -- you'll have a product that can be seen with only 24fps motion judder. It will look like film.

But, I'll bet that world-wide the number of folks who have 480p DVD players and 480p TVs is VERY tiny. Thus, as you say, the 24p DVD is going to have 2:3 pulldown added in the player so the viewers are going to see 24fps motion judder plus 2:3 cadence judder.

Folks need to know that given the V1's way of carrying 24p -- when they create a videotape OR NTSC DVD -- what most of the audience will see is what they see when they watch V1 video. There is no need to use an NLE that supports 24p.

Bottom-line: unless you are going to film or are making DVDs for a tiny audience, you do not need a 24p NLE.

PS: the current cheap HD DVD solutions do not support 24p. I'm burning V1 stuff to HD DVD and it makes no difference if the source frame-rate is 24p or 60i.
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Old February 9th, 2007, 06:53 PM   #8
 
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Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
1) The vast majority of video shot world-wide is 50i/60i and so folks are not creating 24p DVDs,
Whatever.
I'd recommend spending a little time in the production world, you'll quickly realize that the above is only half-true.
The VASST majority of the video shot worldwide is for broadcast, and the vasst majority of folks in this community are not shooting for broadcast.
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Old February 9th, 2007, 08:32 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle
... the vasst majority of folks in this community are not shooting for broadcast.
Perhaps, there's a vasst conflict of interest in your need to push 24p (Vegas) editing. :)

Since I suspect the vast majority in this "community" use FCP -- they need the unbiased information that they do NOT need to edit in 24p. Even if they are making NTSC DVDs.

Despite the INTEREST in 24p -- we know Sony sells the most camcorders into ALL markets world-wide and until the V1 -- no DV, and most DVCAM camcorders, only shot 50i/60i and not "true" 24p. Now if you look over the posts here -- they most often are from owners of Sony camcorders. So were these Sony shooters making 24p NTSC DVDs?

PS: Before the HD100 -- JVC also only sold 50i/60i camcorders.

Let's get back to this thread's topic.
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Old February 9th, 2007, 10:04 PM   #10
 
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Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
Perhaps, there's a vasst conflict of interest in your need to push 24p (Vegas) editing. :)

Since I suspect the vast majority in this "community" use FCP -- they need the unbiased information that they do NOT need to edit in 24p. Even if they are making NTSC DVDs.

Despite the INTEREST in 24p -- we know Sony sells the most camcorders into ALL markets world-wide and until the V1 -- .
Once again, you're not correct. Sony does not sell the most camcorders in all markets worldwide.
Sony created 24p for the video industry, Panasonic popularized it. In Europe and other parts of the world, Grass Valley has long dominated, but that's now changing.
Read on *any* forum worldwide at this particular time, or 3 years ago, and the #1 topic about any NLE has always been 24p. Always. Still is. Will continue to be until every NLE fully supports 24p. Hasn't got anything to do with Vegas. Do you remove pulldown or not? Is it noticeable or not? Of course it is noticeable, the question is how much does it bother you?
What does Vegas have to do with it? Nada, zip, nothing.
If folks didn't want 24p, then camcorders wouldn't be available in 24p. And NLE developers wouldn't be spending millions to develop 24p GOP and other format support in their applications. Display manufacturers wouldn't be developing displays that support 24p. DVD players wouldn't be developed to deliver 24p. Millions of dollars wouldn't be spent each year to insert or remove pulldown via hardware for broadcast and/or replication.
I'm not a big fan of 24p for most uses, if you read most any book I've written, post on the subject, or attended any of the literally hundreds of classes I've taught on real-world production using real-world examples of real-world projects I've shot or edited for paying, real-world clients, you'd know that. But it does serve its market very well, for those that want it, which occasionally includes me.
But to suggest that 24p is nothing, no one is doing it, or that people don't *want* to edit and deliver 24p is totally, completely off the mark and beyond reality.
Every camcorder manufacturer now is manufacturing 24p capable camcorders, from Grass Valley to Ikegami to JVC, Canon, Panasonic, and the inventor of 24p on vid...Sony. Folks want 24p, displays now can display 24p without inserting pulldown, DVDs can deliver 24p without pulldown, it saves tremendous amounts of bandwidth, offers the film cadence that many believe they want whether shooters or producers actually know what they want or not.

This discussion is eerily similar to the old 1630 master samplerate discussions I used to hear Tom Stockham have, it's scary. The difference is, he wasn't dumb enough to get drawn deeply into them. Occasionally, I am. I guess that's why he had two PhD's and I'm just a lowly full-time producer and part time moderator. ;-)
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Old February 10th, 2007, 12:34 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
...if one cuts 24p in a 60i timeline and distrubs the 2:3 cadence -- how visible will it be? This is one of the things non-Vegas users might really care about talking about.
Funny thing. When I first got my XL-H1, I shot a project in 24F HDV and had no choice but to capture the footage into a 60i timeline. (used KonaLH SDI w DVCPRO HD 60i codec)

It was a project I had to turn around quickly and I wasn't even aware of issues having to do with disturbing the cadence. I know that when I tried to deinterlace the final product to 24p, Compressor couldn't do it consistently because of the cadence disruptions. Yet when I play it component out into an HDTV with good pulldown removal algorithms (Faroudja usually) , it looks like perfect 24p. No cadence problems at all.

It's true that 24p editing is very important, but in my own experience it saved me a lot of time to simply edit in a 60i sequence. The downside is that going back to 24p from the 60i edit is very difficult...which one might need to in order to make a decent PAL conversion.

:)
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Old February 10th, 2007, 01:04 AM   #12
 
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Barlow, you've discovered what (I believe) most users experience. What you see in the viewfinder isn't what you see at editing or output, which is why removing the pulldown is important to ((I think) many. Unfortunately, few NLE's support 24pGOP at this time, but that will change in the next 90 days or so.
If you don't have a monitor that supports 24p output, you may well accept the look of pulled up vid as "normal" vs what it looks like from a projector or display that can manage the 24p output.
I'd sure rather be making 25p from 24 rather than the other way around. Are you converting your 60i to 50i/25p for any particular reason?

BTW, Barlow, I watched your Jeep/Christmas piece. Great color on both the jeep and the children's faces!
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Old February 10th, 2007, 02:54 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle
What you see in the viewfinder isn't what you see at editing or output, which is why removing the pulldown is important to ((I think) many.

There was no mention of VF in his post. None!

Exactly the opposite. He said it looked fine on his HDTV.

However, if he was using 24F then there may have been no 2:3 cadence as there would be with a V1. I believe 24F is "true 24." We need to hear from VX100 users.

I'd love to hear what his final solution was.
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Old February 10th, 2007, 03:06 PM   #14
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What I meant in my post is that for convenience sake at the time, 60i editing worked just fine. The project was actually cropped 4x3 (shot it safe) and downconverted to DVCAM for delivery, but I edited the piece originally in DVCPRO HD 60i, of which I made a final self-contained HD QT movie.

It's funny because when I watch the HD QT file on the computer, you can see the cadence disruptions. When I play it out into my different HDTV's that accept 1080i and have pulldown detection, the filmic cadence looks much better.

I certainly would have liked to have edited native 24p at the time, but 60i worked out ok. I've had other projects where I've mixed native 1080i footage and 24F, and of course the only sensible option is to edit 60i.

I'm sure this will all be irrelevant soon with simple pulldown removal tools coming for the various NLE's, but I would have to say that if your project is shot 24p, even if the camera outputs as 1080i (which the V1 does and my H1 does via SDI--but interestingly enough NOT through firewire) it's much more important to have good pulldown removal and add it later if needs be.

btw, thanks for the comment DSE. Gotta meet you here in UT one of these days. :)
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Old February 10th, 2007, 03:22 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle
If you don't have a monitor that supports 24p output, you may well accept the look of pulled up vid as "normal" vs what it looks like from a projector or display that can manage the 24p output.
Yeah, good point. Having 1080i HDTV's that simply accept that signal only and not 24 PsF or somesuch other 24P signal standard, I guess the way these TV's handle a 24p originated 60i signal looks "normal" to me. I know it's technically not as good as displaying with a multiple of 24 Hz, but from a real world perspective of the average joe, it looks fine.

Quote:
I'd sure rather be making 25p from 24 rather than the other way around. Are you converting your 60i to 50i/25p for any particular reason?
No, but it's always better to start with the 24p standard if you might someday distribute your product on PAL DVD's.
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