How PsF video from the V1 is different than "p" or "F" video

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Thank you for the S=8. I'm going to run it through FCP.

Steve I also posted with s=10 and s=12. Even those play back perfectly from Nero Showtime! No need to blend, or deinterlace at all!

Heck, I reallly don't understand why such a good video cannot be played on a Sony Bravia through state-of-the-art interface (HDMI) without line twittering so horrible that it is unwatchable. If only I could be certain that a method can be worked out of creating HD DVD and / or Blu-Ray disks that would play as clean as those software players, I would already be able to make up my mind and stay with the V1...

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Heck, I reallly don't understand why such a good video cannot be played on a Sony Bravia through state-of-the-art interface (HDMI) without line twittering so horrible that it is unwatchable.

Now that I have an original .m2t clip I can confirm what I previously posted.

1) You can use S=8 which is very nicely detailed. (A bit too much -- I would use 6 or 7.) There is NO need to set S=3. The S=3 recommendation was based on viewing the camera output and/or using VLC set to bob interlace.

2) Using VLC set to NO deinterlace which is correct for PsF -- the video is fine. Even when played thru HDMI to an HDTV.

3) Working with FCP there is line twitter in the tiny FCP windows. When you connect the HDMI and the video is played thru HDMI to an HDTV -- it is fine.

4) you can make an 1080p25 HDV movie or a 1080i50 movie and play with the QTplayer thru HDMI to an HDTV -- both are fine.

Bottom line -- in actual production the V1 works perfectly with 25p at S=8. And, any movie one makes also looks fine.

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That leaves 2 open questions:

1) why does S=8 look so bad connected when played from the camcorder direct to a monitor. I see only 2 possibilities:

a) The crap is actually in the V1 recording.

b) The monitor is creating the crap.

The experiments we have done -- and everyone is free to try them -- says the crap appears and disappears based on the de-interlace setting in VLC. Bob would MIGHT claim the crap is in the recording and the VLC setting only changes whether we show it or filter it out. I MIGHT claim the crap is NOT in the recording and the VLC setting only changes whether we create it or show the V1 video correctly.

I don't think we'll easily prove which is correct.

The question I think we can answer is -- can the V1 be used to make movies. With FCP and playing from a computer to an HDTV, the answer is yes. It seems you can do the same with Vegas, so you answer is double yes.

So now the question becomes how will you "record" your production IN HD. Here the answers are:

1) you cannot now record 1080p25 to any hidef disc. You may never be able to do it if players don't support it.

2) you could convert to 24p.

3) you could export to 1080i50 and burn it. I can help you with this.

4) you could export it back to the camera. This is the test you can do the quickest. You can't print-to-tape from a 25p timeline. You would need to export a 50i movie, import it to a 50i timeline, and print-to-tape the 50i timeline. The V1 can only record 50i.

Have you done this?

Have you tried playing this on a Bravia from the V1.

[Michael Phillips]

I'll stand corrected, but it seems to me that 25P is a useless format as it can only be viewed by someone with a V1P/E and a computer to a HDTV.
You can only use the V1P to view 25P shot from the camera via a NLE through HDMI to a HDTV.
There is no way it can be played as a rendered movie with either Bluray or HDDVD.
You cannot print to tape to store an edited movie.
Converting to interlaced seems to defeat the purpose of having progressive.
As well converting to 24P is desperation, why own a PAL progressive camera in the first place.
If anyone can tell me I have got it wrong I would be glad to hear
Michael.

[Bob Grant]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Bob, do you know how the 0.001 vertical Gaussian Blur in Vegas translates into the horizontal lines number reduction? What does this number really mean? Sorry for a naive question, but I don't know the theory behind it and would like to adopt some technique of slightly reducing v-rez without spoiling the h-rez unnecessarily.

Also, the peculiarities of the V1E's progressive mode (in how aliasing prone it is) have forced me to discover various Vegas settings and tricks that I never paid attention to before, as with the Canon A1 they didn't make much difference. Firstly, you can create a new project using the usual 1080/50i template with upper field first, but changing deiterlace mode to "blend fields". Conversely, you can use the "None" (progressive scan) field order, and - even though it doesn't sound logical - also choose "blend fields" as Deinterlace method.

Secondly, you can add a slight vertical Gaussian Blur (though even the smallest possible of 0.001 results in too much softening IMO), or set the option "reduce interlace flicker" in the clips properties, which seems to do the trick.

Then, the rendering of a 1080/25p output MPEG-2 file. I must say I don't quite understand why we have the options of deinterlacing methods when creating a new project, but NOT when creating progressive file from an interlaced source; in the "render as" template you can only set Fieldd order (upper first, lower first, or progressive). Hmmm.

Add to it the various options at playback time (like using Blend in VLC), and you get a headache when trying to established an optimal workflow for the 25PfS of the V1E. It'd be much easier if a more comprehensive description of all the Vegas options involved was available, because the manual and help system don't seem to be very specific.

Here a kind request to Steve and DSE: could you please help us the PAL V1 users with the above? TIA!

As to how much 0.001 is I have not a clue and this is something about MANY of the FX parameters in Vegas I've had the odd complaint about over the years, there's all sort of odd numbers that bear no relationship to anything or are at best cryptic, adding some units of measure would be great.

The de-interlace method is very important when rescaling and there's no optimal setting. It's important because half the resolution is in one field and half in the other. The lines may not line up so to preserve resolution and to prevent hideous aliasing (think large gear teeth, not fine combing) you need to specify a method. Blend works best for low motion, interpolate for high motion. The value specified in the project de-interlace method works accross the entire project, including rendering. As you can hopefully see even when going from 50i to 50i it has a major impact if any rescaling is taking place e.g. rendering from HDV to SD.

I don't know exactly what Reduce Interlace Flicker does exactly, again it would be good to get an explaination but none has been forthcoming. It would seem to force some kind of line averaging.

One thing you can do with Vegas that might help workout just what your display is doing is to deliberately reverse the field order, easy enough to do, just RClick the media and change the field order and render out.
On a true progressive display it shouldn't matter, if the Bravia is attempting to display fields motion should become a mess, think Joe Cocker on hot coals.

As to why there's no 25p template, well the answer I got was because there's no tape device that you can print that to. As we know you can create your own template of course.

[Bob Grant]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

"Just because it looks fine on some devices doesn't mean there's no fault in what being fed to the device that shows a problem, usually the reverse in fact."

An obviously true statement. So obvious that I see no point to it the context of this discussion. The goal NOW is to find a way to produce P movies from 25p V1E video that look good. If that can be done, the question of what to blame becomes moot.

I very much agree with this, in the end we have to deliver the best possible looking content to the client and if there's something wrong with how it looks they're not going to care what caused it, in their eyes it's our fault!

Of course the goal is to find a way to deliver the best possible looking 25p by finding a way to do this. Only reason I keep pursuing the "what's causing it aspect" is not to lay blame as much as by understanding the processes involved we can better decide how to deal with it.

My suggestions at this stage would be pretty much in line with what you've been saying, probably reducing Sharpness in the camera is going to be the simplest approach (the GB FX in Vegas is a render hog). If you want more control then go with either GB in Vegas or the Reduce Interlace Flicker properties switch. I'm certain other NLEs have suitable FXs.

If you're truly going for a film out then ignore the problem, get as much sharpness on the tape as possible.

BTW, I checked out our V1P today, PP1 (Cinema) sets Sharpness to 5 and PP2 (Portrait) sets it to 7 but ups the Skin Detail Level, is this the same in the V1U?

I suspect that if you're going for broadcast then you probably really need to do something. I suspect putting this 25PsF onto a HD CRT is really going to make the aliasing very obvious, the viewers might or might not see it but the guys doing tech checks on your content most likely will. I have a small CRT HD broadcast monitor, it'll be interesting to see how the 25PsF looks on that.

As an interesting aside, apart from dealing with 1,000s of hidef digital photos and their attendant aliasing problems when downscaled to SD in Vegas I've also done 5,000 slide scans at around 4K, none of them needed any treatment when downscaled for SD. It could be that these were taken with older cameras before the days of multicoated optics, it could be nature of film.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Michael Phillips

If anyone can tell me I have got it wrong I would be glad to hear.
Michael.

Toshiba has said -- see my earlier post -- that 25p playback will come "later" via a firmware update. Now I love HD DVD, but I expect BD to "win." So it's what Sony does that is key. If they only want 24p -- that's all you'll get.

So while I wouldn't say 25p will always be useless -- it is looking like it might be for awhile. Except if you WANT to play it from your computer. That really works well.

One thought I've had is that Sony Japan never planned a 25p version, but was convinced by Sony UK before IBC to do it. The first firmware could have been a botched attempt to have something to show at IBC. Think how quickly 25p was pulled. Then, just as quickly, they came-up with "new" firmware and the S=3 recommendation.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Bob Grant

I very much agree with this, in the end we have to deliver the best possible looking content to the client and if there's something wrong with how it looks they're not going to care what caused it, in their eyes it's our fault!

Of course the goal is to find a way to deliver the best possible looking 25p by finding a way to do this. Only reason I keep pursuing the "what's causing it aspect" is not to lay blame as much as by understanding the processes involved we can better decide how to deal with it.

Likewise, I'm increasingly convinced there is something "different" about the V1E. I began by assuming nothing could be "different" about the E because in Sony's description of the V1's operation, much of it from Sony Japan in response to my questions, there was no place for there to be a difference.

Now that I think I know what the difference may be -- I'm far more open to seeing the issue as "in" the V1E. However, before I go further down this path -- I've sent another list of questions to Japan about the MPEG-2 flags.

Meantime, I've done a brute force 1080/25p to 1080/60i export via Compressor. I'll make an HD DVD. If it plays, I want to see if the line-twitter is gone or returns.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

3) you could export to 1080i50 and burn it. I can help you with this.

4) you could export it back to the camera. This is the test you can do the quickest. You can't print-to-tape from a 25p timeline. You would need to export a 50i movie, import it to a 50i timeline, and print-to-tape the 50i timeline. The V1 can only record 50i.

Have you done this?

Have you tried playing this on a Bravia from the V1.

Steve,

ad 3) above: I'm not quite clear on this; what's the point in exporting 25p to 50i rather than making 50i in the first place (or what you mean is just for testing purposes)

ad 4) I'll be printing back to tape today. So, the workflow shuld be:
- create a 1080/50i project and import my 25p clips
- render as 1080/50i
-import the MPEG-2 movie created above back to the TL
- print it to tape from TL

Please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere in the above workflow. Thanks!

[Bob Grant]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Likewise, I'm increasingly convinced there is something "different" about the V1E. I began by assuming nothing could be "different" about the E because in Sony's description of the V1's operation, much of it from Sony Japan in response to my questions, there was no place for there to be a difference.

Now that I think I know what the difference may be -- I'm far more open to seeing the issue as "in" the V1E. However, before I go further down this path -- I've sent another list of questions to Japan about the MPEG-2 flags.

Meantime, I've done a brute force 1080/25p to 1080/60i export via Compressor. I'll make an HD DVD. If it plays, I want to see if the line-twitter is gone or returns.

At some point in time I'm planning to rent a F350, only because I want to try out XDCAM in Vegas and because I have a client I do post work for who has a major shoot coming up and I've (gulp) convinced him that camera would be ideal for the project.

I'd be interesting to see how the 25p from the F350 compares with the 25p from the V1P/E/C. Anyone know if the F350 users are having similar issues, I check the XDCAM fora from time to time and I've not noticed any.

For what it's worth I do know that this is not the only camera to have 'teething' problems, the JVC HD100 had it's share although they were real and the HVX200 had a few that weren't real and from memory how users were viewing the footage was the main cause of their concerns.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Coming back to the topic, I have just printed back to tape (BTW, when you choose in Vegas to print a ready file rather than from the time line, it is possible to print both I and P files). When played back from the camera via component, the twitter is there like in the original.

However, I noticed that when you play back from camera (live or from tape) using compressed i.link (firewire), the twitter is gone - just like when playing back from a software player (eg. VLC).

Bottom line: the heavy line twitter is only present when playing back from camera using uncompressed format (from HDMI or Component).

I don't think there is any point in further testing various sharpness settings, as they can only mask (when low) or emphasize (when high) the problem, which is somewhere else. All comments welcome!

[Mikko Lopponen]

VLC does line twitter for about every video clip when you use bob. Powerdvd and/or nvidias own bob-deinterlacers do a way better job than vlc.

Line twitter in FCP can be eliminated (if working with progressive) by changing the fields in project settings to none.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Steve, I'm not quite clear on this; what's the point in exporting 25p to 50i rather than making 50i in the first place (or what you mean is just for testing purposes)

I want to be certain I've removed all trace of 25PsF and get to "true" 25p. Now you can add graphics and do FX in pure 25p.

WORKFLOW:

- create a 1080/25p project and import 25p clips
- add graphics and titles
- render as 1080/25p for VLC playback

I'm not sure how you can print a 25p Timeline to the V1? Can you simply print-to-tape from a 1080/p25 timeline? Will Vegas add the correct flags and convert it to PsF?

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However, I noticed that when you play back from camera (live or from tape) using compressed i.link (firewire), the twitter is gone -- just like when playing back from a software player (eg. VLC).

Bottom line: the heavy line twitter is only present when playing back from camera using uncompressed format (from HDMI or Component).

HOW do you view the i.LINK signal? What do you feed the i.LINK signal into?

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Mikko Lopponen

VLC does line twitter for about every video clip when you use bob. Powerdvd and/or nvidias own bob-deinterlacers do a way better job than vlc.

Line twitter in FCP can be eliminated (if working with progressive) by changing the fields in project settings to none.

I don't think these are OS X: Powerdvd and/or nvidias own bob-deinterlacers

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

"However, I noticed that when you play back from camera (live or from tape) using compressed i.link (firewire), the twitter is gone -- just like when playing back from a software player (eg. VLC).

Bottom line: the heavy line twitter is only present when playing back from camera using uncompressed format (from HDMI or Component)."

HOW do you view the i.LINK signal? What do you feed the i.LINK signal into?

Steve, simply with VLC streaming from Capture Device (uses DirecDraw). NO line twitter - just like with captured files. Now, what do you make out of this?!!

[Bob Grant]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

I want to be certain I've removed all trace of 25PsF and get to "true" 25p. Now you can add graphics and do FX in pure 25p.

WORKFLOW:

- create a 1080/25p project and import 25p clips
- add graphics and titles
- render as 1080/25p for VLC playback

I'm not sure how you can print a 25p Timeline to the V1? Can you simply print-to-tape from a 1080/p25 timeline? Will Vegas add the correct flags and convert it to PsF?

As I pointed out before, here's the problem. Vegas cannot print to tape 25PsF the same as the camera records. That's straight from the Vegas engineers. Also there's no way to PTT 25p as per Canon either. And here to some extent lies the real problemo, one that near drove me nuts a while ago. In terms of aliasing problems it don't matter much anyways, at least not with 25p / 50i.

Simple example of the problem. Take an odd field of black and an even field of white. Merge them into a single frame, duplicate and render out as 25p. You've now got a frame with 1080 line of V res. It'll look fine on a real 25p display but all you get on a 50i display is a blinking screen. Thing is for 50i the max V res is half what it is for 25p otherwise line twitter will get you. Doesn't matter if the source is 25p or 50i, once it's displayed as 50i you have the problem.

Hope this makes sense.