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Sony HVR-V1 / HDR-FX7
Pro and consumer versions of this Sony 3-CMOS HDV camcorder.


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Old May 22nd, 2007, 09:33 PM   #16
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Hey guys, here is the dance clip I promised. I had to make it under 100mb in order to put it on rapidshare. I encoded it with Apple's H.264 codec so it's not the best representation of the original clip but it came out pretty good.

http://rapidshare.com/files/32833368...Dance_Clip.mp4
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Old May 22nd, 2007, 09:48 PM   #17
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Great! And I'm sure even much faster action would be handled fine by the HDV encoder. What were your settings?
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Old May 22nd, 2007, 09:51 PM   #18
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Actually this was my first shoot with the V1U I just got it the day before and didn't even have time to play it. Everything was shot out of the box. I only controlled the exposure settings and gain. It was all in 60i. i was impressed with the automatic capabilities of the V1U.
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Old May 24th, 2007, 12:25 PM   #19
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Hey Steve, for the record… we care! The HDV format and HDV users are very important to Sony; we are fully committed to both. Due to its being Sony’s first flash memory camcorder, the introduction of the XDCAM EX camcorder stole the attention away from a “mockup” of a future, full-size cassette HDV camcorder that was also shown inside a glass case at NAB. It is too early to reveal the details about this HDV camcorder, but you can be assured that like previous Sony professional HDV products, this new acquisition tool will further enrich the quality, workflow and creativity of low cost HD production.

Juan Martinez, Sony Electronics
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Old May 24th, 2007, 12:40 PM   #20
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Juan, what PC setup would you recommend to capture live video from Sony V1U over HDMI?
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Old June 2nd, 2007, 08:55 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan Martinez View Post
Due to its being Sony’s first flash memory camcorder, the introduction of the XDCAM EX camcorder stole the attention away from a “mockup” of a future, full-size cassette HDV camcorder that was also shown inside a glass case at NAB.
I thought the full size HDV was wonderful, but I haven't published anything because the comments I heard were that Sony wasn't "sure" if it would actually build it and because I didn't find a Press Release.

As you say, given the EX (and it's very low price) it was hard for many not to wonder if EX wasn't the future of MPEG-2.

This impression is strengthed by:

1) a string of stories in major publications that "HDV is dead"
2) Sony being a co-developer of AVCHD (which has a 24Mbps option).
3) JVC "pro" marketing ProHD, not HDV
4) JVC "consumer" using 1440CBR MPEG-2, but not calling it "anything."
5) Avid's several year pause in support for "HDV."
6) Apple's equal lateness in supporting the 720p50/720p60 and V1 camcorders.
7) The incredible hostility to HDV by the alpha dogs in Hollywood. The fact that what they say is untrue seems not to matter as no one dares argue with them.

In fairness, some of their issues are justified. FCP/JVC has serious issues capturing 720p using batch capture. (Avid doesn't even claim it can.) And, until the Sony 1500 VTR -- just introduced -- the pros had no RS422 controlled VTR with HD-SDI which they claim they must have.

At the same time, XDCAM HD offers 35Mbps (which makes them FEEL better about MPEG-2) and pro level capture by Avid and Apple. The EX falls into line with all this exiting support.

Bottom-line, had Apple shown support for ProHD and the V1, and had Sony put-out some kind of Press Release on the full-sized HDV unit -- the question of "HDV's" future would not have come up as strongly at NAB.

As we talked about at NAB, "out-reach" is especially important for Sony because its R&D creates multiple formats that differ by relatively small price increments. FUD is inherent in today's market, even when not created by the competition. (And, it is.)

The fact that the same "are you still beating your wife" type questions appear on all the list-serves, suggest that even after 3-4 years of use -- HDV is still not understood by both novices and even super pros. Perhaps because intra-frame compression and 4:2:0 sampling move video so far into mathematics that creative types either can't (or simply won't try to) understand it and so become easy prey to FUD.
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Last edited by Steve Mullen; June 2nd, 2007 at 09:59 PM.
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Old June 4th, 2007, 11:13 AM   #22
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"EX (and it's very low price) it was hard for many not to wonder if EX wasn't the future of MPEG-2"

Hmmm ... I hope MPEG-2 doesn't have too much more of a future for aquisition formats -- there's better, newer, more efficient methods out there in many flavors now.

"very low price"?!? -- Wow, for some folks on the higher end, it might be somewhat inexpensive, but compared to the nicer HDV options, it's still VERY expensive, and will be for some time, especially with the cost of the big storage cards. It will be quite a while before I head out for a big field adventure or overseas trip with cards for many hours of footage vs. very affordable tapes.

I'd love the quality boost and direct-to-card recording, but it's not going to be affordable or practical for me and many other folks for quite a while -- which hopefully only means a few years.

Until then, HDV will keep going strong in its market -- especially given some solid camera choices and amount of HDV producers out there already.
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Old June 4th, 2007, 06:14 PM   #23
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For what it offers, the EX is very resonably priced. I know a few seasoned pros who have wanted physical lens control on a camera in this price range. As far as workflow goes, xdcam ex is the only solid state format that has a solid state archival method (sonys professional disk) that can back up your original acquisition footage, without converting files.
More efficient codecs require more powerful and power hungry encoders, not so good for a 7.2v camcorder (I do think the mathematics of this business is a little too much to handle). It's at least a few years out. MPEG-2 seems to be a pretty good comprimise right now. As for fast motion and the V1u, any other clips you guys could post would be just wonderful. I'm looking for an upgrade right now and the V1u is at the top of my list.
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Old June 4th, 2007, 07:32 PM   #24
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Greg, V1U's mpeg2 encoder behaves just like the ones on FX1/Z1U...

With fast pans, or unpredictable motion/busy background in the frame, the vertical lines are falling apart for as long as the compressor is over-stressed.

You can see the same thing in your cable HDTV broadcast :)

I have a limited experience capturing LIVE video from V1U over HDMI. This method *bypasses* mpeg compression and so the picture quality is great and without the compression artifacts mentioned above.
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Old June 5th, 2007, 06:46 AM   #25
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I've shot HDV for 4 years and I've never seen what you describe. Likewise, I've had HDTV from near day one in the USA and even the horrible first HD Olymics on NBC -- I've never seen what you describe.

MPEG-2 break-up comes in the form of macro-blocking, not trearing. But, even this is increasingly rare. It never happens with 720p. It happens with explosions on 1080i. BUT -- almost only when a TV station doesn't provide the full 19.4Mbps for HD. Or, uses a cheap encoder.

On TWC and COX cable, it is very rare.

HD2 records at 25Mbps, 20% higher than ATSC.

They key is not MPEG-2 or not MPEG-2, but the sophistication of the MPEG-2 encoder. By increasing encoder sophistication and the bit rate to 50Mbps -- 4:2:2 can be recorded that will look as good as what some call more "advanced" formats.

PS: "Wow, for some folks on the higher end, it might be somewhat inexpensive, ..." Have you priced XDCAM HD camcorders WITH an HD lens? And, XDCAM HD is at the very low-end of HD. The EX is crazy cheap. And, the street price of the EX will be cheaper. Not in my price range, but certainly in the price range of anyone who shoots HD for profit.
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Old June 7th, 2007, 08:23 PM   #26
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Wow thanks for all the information. I'm definitely more confident in the HDV codec. Looks like the A1 is in my budget so it looks like I'll be making a purchase real soon.
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Old June 8th, 2007, 10:43 AM   #27
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Shaun, I have been shooting quite a bit of wakeboarding ,very fast action and Im not seeing any problems. Lots of water moving fast with fast pans. I am shooting in 60i but I havent burned to disc yet. Just watching it on an HD tv and all I can say is WOW
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Old June 8th, 2007, 07:09 PM   #28
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Shaun, I have been shooting quite a bit of wakeboarding ,very fast action and Im not seeing any problems. Lots of water moving fast with fast pans. I am shooting in 60i but I havent burned to disc yet. Just watching it on an HD tv and all I can say is WOW
Thank you for posting. I have to wonder if some reports of "tearing" images aren't from LCD displays that cannot update fast enough. Or, a connection problem.
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Old June 11th, 2007, 06:26 AM   #29
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The mpeg compression artifacts of the Sony z1 are very obvious with anything slightly more demanding shots. If the v1 is anything like it then it should show those same ugly macroblocks in difficult situations.

The HC1 also has a tendency to breakup in difficult scenes rendering some frames really bad
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Old June 11th, 2007, 06:33 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Mikko Lopponen View Post
The mpeg compression artifacts of the Sony z1 are very obvious with anything slightly more demanding shots. If the v1 is anything like it then it should show those same ugly macroblocks in difficult situations.

The HC1 also has a tendency to breakup in difficult scenes rendering some frames really bad
"Anything slightly more demanding" - could you elaborate? I'm not a Sony (or HDV, for that matter) fanboy, but haven't noticed any compression artefacts on my V1E that would be more dramatic than what I can see on Discovery HD, for instance.
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