Best capture method to Final Cut? at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony HDV and DV Camera Systems > Sony HVR-Z1 / HDR-FX1

Sony HVR-Z1 / HDR-FX1
Pro and consumer versions of this Sony 3-CCD HDV camcorder.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 4th, 2008, 10:05 AM   #1
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 616
Best capture method to Final Cut?

I just learned that HDV has this GOP stuff that means every 15 frames or so you can make a clean cut. If you cut within the GOP then your clip becomes extra compressed near the cut. I've been capturing my HDR-FX1 to final cut5 with a firewire and easy settings on: HDV 1080i60
I also heard that when I am capturing I am compressing the video even more. This is sad, what's the best way to capture -do I need to buy something?

I own a powerbook at the moment.
Aric Mannion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 4th, 2008, 12:50 PM   #2
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Posts: 561
Aric,

It sounds like you have been misinformed. You are already doing the best possible thing - capturing over FireWire, which gives you in the computer bit for bit what was recorded to tape. The only better solution with your camera would be to capture live (i.e. without a tape) into your computer, using a good capture card.

The long-GOP format is a downside of HDV, no doubt about it. But it seems to work fine, with some exceptions (such as very fast movement/pans), where the long-GOP compression has a tougher job to do.

Where you CAN make a difference, though, is during editing. Applying filters, transitions, cuts - all that changes the video, so that a re-encode is necessary, and it is here that you have better alternatives than HDV to choose from.

I see you use a Mac, which editing software are you using? FCP (latest version) has a codec called ProRes, and a way to capture in HDV but render effects in ProRes. Other software will have different ways of changing the edit and/or delivery codec.

- Martin
__________________
Martin Pauly
Martin Pauly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 4th, 2008, 01:36 PM   #3
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Iowa City, Iowa
Posts: 670
FCS2 can capture HDV & convert realtime to ProRes via FireWire.
__________________
youtube.com/benhillmedia
linkedin.com/in/benhillmedia
Benjamin Hill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 5th, 2008, 03:57 PM   #4
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Hill View Post
FCS2 can capture HDV & convert realtime to ProRes via FireWire.
So is this the best way to capture? Does it increase the file size?
I don't think FCPS2 is compatible with powerbooks (not intel based), but I have access to this at work... I wonder if I could capture at work and import the capture scratch into my powerbook with FCP 5.0.1 to edit.
Aric Mannion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 5th, 2008, 06:50 PM   #5
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chicoutimi, Canada
Posts: 334
FCS2 is compatible with powerbooks, mine runs FC6 without a glitch (even if it's a 1Ghz G4)
__________________
Eric Bilodeau
video SFX,DOP
___________________
http://www.fictis.net
info@fictis.net
Eric Bilodeau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 7th, 2008, 07:19 AM   #6
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Posts: 561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aric Mannion View Post
So is this the best way to capture? Does it increase the file size?
It does increase the file size, and I would argue that therefore it's not the best way to capture - because it doesn't improve the quality. Once the damage is done ("damage" being the encoding in HDV when you record to tape), converting to a higher quality codec doesn't improve the quality.

- Martin
__________________
Martin Pauly
Martin Pauly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 7th, 2008, 12:11 PM   #7
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Pauly View Post
It does increase the file size, and I would argue that therefore it's not the best way to capture - because it doesn't improve the quality. Once the damage is done ("damage" being the encoding in HDV when you record to tape), converting to a higher quality codec doesn't improve the quality.

- Martin
Correct that it doesn't improve the quality, but it does make it easier to work with, especially if you are doing a lot of color correcting or effects work.
All depends on his workflow.
__________________
Michael
www.lvpvideo.com
Michael Liebergot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 8th, 2008, 02:25 PM   #8
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 616
This is kind of what I'm referring to:
http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/hdvxdv_wright.html

it says:

"HDV and DVD use the same video encoding scheme...
...If you've ever watched a slow fade to black on a DVD, you may have noticed that the picture breaks up into squares....
...Editing in native HDV, forces these limitations on you. It will affect the quality of the effects and transitions that you put in your video"

(It effects your cuts I think as well, because of GOP.)
I don't want my picture to break up into squares from a simple fade. I make greenscreen videos in after effects to edit in final cut pro 5. My question is: If I composite in after effects and export as animation, then edit that in final cut... will I be able to avoid these "limitations" on cuts and fades in final cut (since the video will be animation codec instead of mpeg2)?
Or should I try to capture as apple pro res in the first place?
Aric Mannion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 8th, 2008, 03:08 PM   #9
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada
Posts: 4,087
I capture HDV via Firewire to ProRes422 and work on my video that way. It doesn't make the image any better, but each subsequent edit does not make it any worse.

Is ProRes better than HDV for editing? Depends. I build all my graphics as TIFFS instead of JPEGS and my Motion Graphics as Animation Codec instead of DV/DVCPro/HDV. I notice the difference. If you don't (either because of your material, your needs or your visual acuity ) then don't bother with the increased file size. I notice it so I deal with much larger files to make myself happy. If you do a bunch or green screen work AFTER editing, I'd suggest that maybe it's in your best interest. Do you have enough hard drive space to support increased file size? If not, can you afford an external drive?

Do an A/B test. If ProRes doesn't look any better to you, save yourself the hassle. If it does, then decide whether size or quality is more important to you.
__________________
Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster
www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/
Shaun Roemich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 8th, 2008, 03:21 PM   #10
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun Roemich View Post
Do an A/B test. If ProRes doesn't look any better to you, save yourself the hassle. If it does, then decide whether size or quality is more important to you.
I don't notice it now because I'm on a powerbook, and it's hard to see. I think it would be smart to capture HDV as prores because I key green screen footage in "Adobe After Effects" BEFORE I edit. I've read that HDV is an awful choice for greenscreen (I assume it's better than DV though...). If capturing another way will provide better keys, then I have to do it!
Can you explain your system how you capture in pro res? Don't you need an AJA or blackmagic? I am using a powerbook, and I can get Final Cut 6 if I have to.
Aric Mannion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 8th, 2008, 05:56 PM   #11
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada
Posts: 4,087
Ok. Once video is captured to tape in the HDV format, you CANNOT make it better. It has already undergone resizing from 1920 x 1080 to 1440 x 1080, colour reduction from 4:2:2 to 4:2:0 as well as bit reduction to 25mbps (including audio).

My workflow takes this ALREADY "degraded" image and captures it via Firewire as an MPEG-2 encoded HDV stream and converts it in real time to an INTERframe encoded codec using 4:2:2 colour space at a higher bitrate.

The reason I do this is NOT to gain what I've "lost" but rather to avoid losing any more. I edit HDV using ProRes 422 because now I don't incur new GOP generation at each cut, dissolve, wipe etc. It also gives me more latitude in terms of colour depth for animations that are brought in in the Animation codec (a less dramatically compressed codec).

Personally, I believe the 4:2:0 colour space of HDV is superior to 4:1:1 DV for keying and colour representation but pales compared to 4:2:2 or 4:4:4. The colour is in blocks as opposed to lines and seems to key marginally better. But then there are MPEG-2 artifacts to deal with so...

FCP6 ships with the ProRes Codec and can be used by capturing over firewire from HDV into ProRes. Keep in mind that ProRes files are 3-5 times larger than HDV files and require faster throughput from disc as well.
__________________
Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster
www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/
Shaun Roemich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 8th, 2008, 06:14 PM   #12
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 616
Thanks, I've read that my powerbook may drop frames capturing in prores. Martin Pauly (above) said that I don't lose quality when capturing HDV, and I can simply render in prores. If that's the case is there any reason to CAPTURE prores?
It may be difficult for me, so if it's not important I'd just render in prores.

Last edited by Aric Mannion; April 9th, 2008 at 10:29 AM.
Aric Mannion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 10th, 2008, 11:32 AM   #13
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Posts: 561
I just saw that lynda.com has a new tutorial. Topic is "HD Workflow with Final Cut Studio". Maybe it answers some of these questions (in case you have a subscription)?

http://movielibrary.lynda.com/html/modPage.asp?ID=580

- Martin
__________________
Martin Pauly
Martin Pauly is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony HDV and DV Camera Systems > Sony HVR-Z1 / HDR-FX1

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:04 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network