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Sony HVR-Z1 / HDR-FX1
Pro and consumer versions of this Sony 3-CCD HDV camcorder.


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Old September 12th, 2004, 11:35 PM   #16
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LOL!
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Old September 13th, 2004, 12:19 AM   #17
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I don't think Panasonic is onboard, though Canon is part of Panasonic, so to speak, and vice versa.

Visit here for a list of supporters.

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Old September 13th, 2004, 12:43 PM   #18
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From reading the IBC report at ci , it leaves the 24p question open for the pro version- sony , if it really wants a camkiller , would be wise to include it - for 6 grand the camera everyone in the world would want !
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Old September 13th, 2004, 01:01 PM   #19
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But it could compete against their CineAlta line, the next addition likely coming out before Star Wars 3 does.

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Old September 13th, 2004, 01:18 PM   #20
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But, I was thinking of the "quantity" side of how many they could sell. If they only sell worldwide like 1000 CinaAlta's per month or somewhere in that ballpark...how about 5,000-10,000 HDV cameras per month?

I'm just thinking that the number crunchers have to be looking at the volume of mommy's and daddy's buying home video equipment. My brother had his first kid a year ago....they bought a Mini-DV camera. I bet worldwide 5,000-10,000 or heck WAY more were sold the same month my brother bought his Mini-DV. My calculations tell me that Sony and everyone else would make a HECK of a lot more money pumping out cameras to consumers than to a relatively small number of people worldwide that can buy a CinaAlta or any other "pro" $100,000 camera. I bet the profit margin isn't as high as the new generation of home video parents.

Just my 2 cents. If I were a video camera maker I'd be putting all my eggs in the basket of people with disposalble income......and HDTV buyers are just that group! We unfortunately fall in that catagory instead of the CinaAlta group. If Lucas and us are on the same page....I damn as well can't tell. I feel like we're almost shmucks buying these cameras expecting super support, no problems with manual controls etc etc. They have us by the (insert body part) and we get all excited when they give us a bread crumb in the form of an extra button or two. (namely the Iris & Shutter fiasco)

I'm JUST AS GUILTY as the next guy of playing into the whole thing. But, when it call comes down to it...I don't they think of us as the most important customer. They want the mommy/daddy crowd to buy most of the cameras. They don't don't bitch like us about low-light because they have no idea what that means! Those customers are totally satisfied if the images comes out...period. We buy cameras and accessories, but so do 90% of the disposable incomers nowadays!

Anyway, that turned into a long rant! Sorry..

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Old September 13th, 2004, 03:48 PM   #21
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magical time

All i know is only untill recently i had NO ideas about camcorders(i had an 8mm Sanyo, was happy with it.) untill i read in a newspaper article about "Full frontal" that was "shot on consumer digital camcorder" and it got me wondering..... and in this story it was said that camcorders have come a long way, bla bla bla, and that that the image was so sharp that "fake" grain was added to make it look like film; BANG my brain went into overdrive, i thought digital was superior to film (damn i was sooo naive!).
I went out immeadiatley and stated reading up on miniDV and boy was i in for a shock! when i found out that 35mm was so much superior then digital and digital was playing catch up, my world had by then been turned upside down.

But then things started to happen, first the DVX , then "Once upon time in Mexico" then, Dalsa , THEN HDV (OK not in the order,) so MUCH in so little time!

Hey i'm glad i'm witnessing such an explosive period of DV history , like they say "Histroy in the Making"

One things for sure aint no turning back now.
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Old September 13th, 2004, 04:52 PM   #22
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I really don't think the FX1 is going to be a big hit with consumers. If you look at it in person, it's obvious that it was designed first and foremost as a pro camera. The huge variety of manual controls, dials and switches on it practically screams "ENG camera". It's also freakin' huge. I really can't see a lot of soccer moms taking this behemoth out to the game. The controls and size are going to scare away all but the extreme hobbyists/prosumers who are the top end of the VX-2000's market now. I'd be willing to bet that most of the VX-2000 sales go to wedding videographers, corporate and industrial, extreme sports kiddies and the like. The soccer moms are buying the cute little palm-sized cams, and they always will. It's not about image quality - it's about what you can carry in your purse!

That said, this camera will never compete with a CineAlta either. Having a larger CCD is absolutely essential to shooting feature films, due to depth of field issues. In fact, I believe that the new Panavision/Sony combo has the best chance of becoming the defacto standard for feature production, for the simple reason of full 35mm sensors. That's not to say that indie films won't be shot on this camera - they will, and in droves. But those are the films that wouldn't shoot on a CineAlta anyway. This camera will be a DVX-100 / XL-2 killer, not competition for the high end.

I think that since the VX-1000, Sony has realized there is a huge swath of market between "consumer" and "pro". The first time I ever heard the term "prosumer" was in reference to the VX-1000. My only question is why put out this model first, and why take $500-$1000 worth of features OUT of a pro model cam? Would it really be a disaster to market the same camera under both banners?
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Old September 13th, 2004, 10:19 PM   #23
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While I understand the logic behind the argument that many have made in reference to Sony (or any other company) wanting to "handicap" a particular camera as a way of protecting thier higher end models, it has been my experience that Scott's point is the real truth of the matter. Most of the "indies" that will choose to shoot thier DIY masterpieces with a prosumer camcorder are the guys that never had the money or opportunity to even consider working with the higher end models likes the HDW-F900 in the first place. More importantly, the companies who can afford the best, are always going to use the best.

Few cinematographers who have the money to shoot any format they desire will choose HDCAM over 35mm. And few production companies who work with DigitalBetaCAM, DVCPRO50, or even 1080/60i HDCAM are going to stop using those formats and corresponding cameras in favor of a $4,000 prosumer camcorder.

Murph, I agree with your quantity logic. But remember that the HDW-F900 is THE BEST SELLING CAMERA IN SONY'S HISTORY. Period. At one point there was a 32 week waiting list to get one. That's how well these cameras sold. They have never had a warehouse full of $100,000 cameras waiting to be sold. These cameras moved and moved fast. I suspect that little will change upon the introduction of a F950 with a built in VTR back or similiar, regardless of whatever HDV camcorder du jour may be available.

I too anxiously await the opportunity to get my hands on a 3CCD, full manual control, VX-PD-DVX-styled HDV offering from Sony. But until such a camera proves its production viability to me in a real world working enviroment, I'll continue to look to the proven options in the DV, HD, and Film world for my imaging needs.
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Old September 13th, 2004, 10:58 PM   #24
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Good analogy, Jon and Scott. I once asked when I could buy a CineAlta, which, three years ago I wanted to (when it came out), and the wait was 25 weeks, and that was when it first came out!

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Old September 14th, 2004, 11:57 AM   #25
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Be patient everyone, Sony WILL have more than XLRs and seperate manual audio on the pro version.
No one knows for sure, but from what I'm hearing different CCDs, different power and possibly Blue Laser. The Pro version at IBC is not the final version.
FWIW True Progressive (even at 720P) and an AntonBauer 12V Powertap is all I'm asking for! LOL
NDAs are implemented for a reason.
Patiently waiting,

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Old September 14th, 2004, 12:40 PM   #26
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Where are you hearing different CCD's? I assume you mean progressive 720p and not different size.

I think Sony will keep the current CCD's on the pro model. Although it's very odd to charge 3k more for a high end model with just xlr audio attached, so we'll see.
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Old September 14th, 2004, 12:49 PM   #27
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i think this cam will have a big market without soccor moms

corporate in house departments
event grabbers
film and doc folks
news folks (most likely the pd150 users)
and finally
techno geeks

pretty much the same market all prosumer dv cams hit..
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Old September 14th, 2004, 02:10 PM   #28
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LOL, today I went to the IBC and I played around with this cam. But I didnīt know it was the pro version until I saw the pictures on this forum a few minutes ago.
As far as I could see there was no switch for 720p or 24p or something like that. It was all just 1080i. I didnīt have much time to try all the buttons, because there were some other people waiting to get their hands on it (btw. the menu button didnīt even exist. There was only a hole where it should be). But I did push the PICTURE PROFILE button. With this option you can recall some image-setting presets you can store. I tried some of these presets and there were some very cool gamma settings, wich looked very simular to film. Some had a very low detail setting, so the picture was very soft and it looked like it was a bit out of focus. But when you use it in combination with a small depth of field (back- and/or foreground out of focus) can can get beautiful images with this setting.
Iīm sorry I donīt have much info for you. I would have looked better if I knew it was the pro-version.

Andreas
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Old September 15th, 2004, 11:51 AM   #29
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in a nutshell...

why do so many want 'progressive' mode, 24p capability? this might not be the best location to ask this, but what are the main reasons so many want 24p/progressive capability?
thanks. john
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Old September 15th, 2004, 01:35 PM   #30
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Q's for anyone who has handled the FX1

(or read/heard some first-hand accounts I may have missed)

1. How's the view magnification through the finder? I know it's letterboxed 16:9, and has a higher res 250k 4:3 vf, but does it seem to use the same .33" size vf from the vx2000/2100?

Hopefully they've upgraded size of the vf or at least its magn of the viewing optic, as the 16:9 will appear smaller in the 4:3 finder, and I thought the magn in the VX/PD vf was only Just adequate, at best.

2. Comments on the feel of the zoom ring? Have they managed to approximate a well-damped, nicely-dragging lens ring? Something tells me that the real answer to this question is the key to knowing how well Sony executed the whole camera.

3. How long does it take the camera to turn on and be shooting? And, how noisy is the transport on start-up and shut-down? (although doubtful anyone could hear anything in the din of the teeming masses...)

---------------------------------
Regardless of the above, I'm fairly sure I'll be getting one, the only game in town for probably another year. And I'm hoping that it IS possible to acquire before year's-end. Better get myself on some dealer's list... I'm of course also very curious as to what the Pro version will include -it has to be Something other than XLR's, settable TC, and nicer color for an extra $3000! (and HDV supposedly can't record to DVCAM, only SD; it looks like Sony's new HDV tapes are the DVCAM's replacement for the hi-def drop-out worried) Otherwise, 3 grand buys very nice mics, even a custom-built adptr/pre-amp.
But I'd bet it's well into Summer '05 before that pro version can be had in any case, so I may have to take the plunge on this FX1, ASAP.
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