Can 1080i and 24p go together? at DVinfo.net

Ozzy Alvarez · October 22nd, 2004, 11:31 PM

Alot of us are speculating on whether or not the hvr-z1 will have 24p or not. If it does, we are asking how Sony can do 24p on 1080i. Well, I was at Son'y Broadcast website and do recall that their HDCAM F900 does both 1080i and 24p. Here's the article from Sony's Broadcast website.

"The HDW-F900 CineAlta camcorder is capable of capturing images at 24/25/30 frame progressive or 50/60 interlace at 1080 resolution. The HDW-F900h utilizes a 2.2 Mega Pixel FIT CCD and comes equipped with various gamma curves for superior imaging. The camcorder features dual filter wheels, comprehensive software adjustment parameters for superior image control. Memory Stick setup system saves and recalls various parameter settings."

Well, if the F900 can do both 24p and 1080i, why can't the z1? I know I'm comparing what will be a $6000/$7000 HDV camcorder to a HDCAM camcorder that costs well over $90,000. But, all I'm saying is that the possibility to make a camcorder that does both 1080i and 24p is not impossible. Sony is quite capable of doing it. I'm sure the images won't look as breathtaking as the f900 or f950, but, a decent looking image at 24p on the z1 might keep most of us happy. It really comes down to not whether or not Sony can do it, but, if Sony really wants to do it.

Ozzy

John Dovydenas · October 23rd, 2004, 12:16 AM

"It really comes down to not whether or not Sony can do it, but, if Sony really wants to do it. "
Thats really all it is. If a video camera were to record 24p onto 1080i it wouldn't be so fancy. The AG-DVX100A and the XL2 record true 24p by laying down a single frame over two fields. I beleive the HDW-900 records 24p in this manner, by laying it down over a 1080i signal. I don't think its a matter of cost either. Does a progressive sensor cost any more then an interlaced sensor? Is there any real difference between the two? It's not as if progressive consumer cameras are any more expensive then interlaced ones.

Rob Lohman · October 23rd, 2004, 05:32 AM

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Barry Green · October 23rd, 2004, 11:40 AM

I posted a response elsewhere to this same question, but it all comes down to: did they design the CCD to shoot progressive-scan at 24P? If not, then it can't be done on this camera. If they did, then there are ways to get 24P on an HDV tape, even though 24P is not part of the HDV format.

Peter Moore · October 24th, 2004, 05:13 PM

"Does a progressive sensor cost any more then an interlaced sensor?"

An interlaced sensor would only have to output half the data per frame as a progressive one. It would also have to be capable of using all 1080 lines at once versus only half at a time. I would definitely expect this to cost more.

Kevin Dooley · October 24th, 2004, 06:28 PM

I'm no expert on much of anything...but I'm an avid reader of a few different forums and there's been a lot of talk on the forums about CCD's. Apparently their all inherently progressive. Some, due to their tech level/cost, can only do certain frame rates, however, others can do multiple frame rates--but apparently their all progressive, it's just a matter of how their used/software/firmware of the camera...

Peter Moore · October 25th, 2004, 10:13 AM

Well does a 1080i CCD have 1080 lines, or 540 lines?

I guess it must have 1080 lines since full 1080 line images are stored in the two fields (and when there's no motion you can easily interpolate to get a full 1080p image) but I wonder if the CCD does some kind of trick to make that happen with 540 lines.

October 22nd, 2004, 11:31 PM	#1
Ozzy Alvarez Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Kenilworth, NJ Posts: 85	Can 1080i and 24p go together? Alot of us are speculating on whether or not the hvr-z1 will have 24p or not. If it does, we are asking how Sony can do 24p on 1080i. Well, I was at Son'y Broadcast website and do recall that their HDCAM F900 does both 1080i and 24p. Here's the article from Sony's Broadcast website. "The HDW-F900 CineAlta camcorder is capable of capturing images at 24/25/30 frame progressive or 50/60 interlace at 1080 resolution. The HDW-F900h utilizes a 2.2 Mega Pixel FIT CCD and comes equipped with various gamma curves for superior imaging. The camcorder features dual filter wheels, comprehensive software adjustment parameters for superior image control. Memory Stick setup system saves and recalls various parameter settings." Well, if the F900 can do both 24p and 1080i, why can't the z1? I know I'm comparing what will be a $6000/$7000 HDV camcorder to a HDCAM camcorder that costs well over $90,000. But, all I'm saying is that the possibility to make a camcorder that does both 1080i and 24p is not impossible. Sony is quite capable of doing it. I'm sure the images won't look as breathtaking as the f900 or f950, but, a decent looking image at 24p on the z1 might keep most of us happy. It really comes down to not whether or not Sony can do it, but, if Sony really wants to do it. Ozzy

October 23rd, 2004, 05:32 AM	#3
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=32177 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=32162 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=33711 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=33698 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=32575 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=33815 __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

October 24th, 2004, 06:28 PM	#6
Kevin Dooley Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 414	I'm no expert... I'm no expert on much of anything...but I'm an avid reader of a few different forums and there's been a lot of talk on the forums about CCD's. Apparently their all inherently progressive. Some, due to their tech level/cost, can only do certain frame rates, however, others can do multiple frame rates--but apparently their all progressive, it's just a matter of how their used/software/firmware of the camera...

October 23rd, 2004, 12:16 AM	#2
John Dovydenas New Boot Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 10	"It really comes down to not whether or not Sony can do it, but, if Sony really wants to do it. " Thats really all it is. If a video camera were to record 24p onto 1080i it wouldn't be so fancy. The AG-DVX100A and the XL2 record true 24p by laying down a single frame over two fields. I beleive the HDW-900 records 24p in this manner, by laying it down over a 1080i signal. I don't think its a matter of cost either. Does a progressive sensor cost any more then an interlaced sensor? Is there any real difference between the two? It's not as if progressive consumer cameras are any more expensive then interlaced ones.

October 23rd, 2004, 11:40 AM	#4
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	I posted a response elsewhere to this same question, but it all comes down to: did they design the CCD to shoot progressive-scan at 24P? If not, then it can't be done on this camera. If they did, then there are ways to get 24P on an HDV tape, even though 24P is not part of the HDV format.

October 24th, 2004, 05:13 PM	#5
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	"Does a progressive sensor cost any more then an interlaced sensor?" An interlaced sensor would only have to output half the data per frame as a progressive one. It would also have to be capable of using all 1080 lines at once versus only half at a time. I would definitely expect this to cost more.

October 25th, 2004, 10:13 AM	#7
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Well does a 1080i CCD have 1080 lines, or 540 lines? I guess it must have 1080 lines since full 1080 line images are stored in the two fields (and when there's no motion you can easily interpolate to get a full 1080p image) but I wonder if the CCD does some kind of trick to make that happen with 540 lines.