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Sony HVR-Z1 / HDR-FX1
Pro and consumer versions of this Sony 3-CCD HDV camcorder.


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Old November 10th, 2004, 11:09 PM   #16
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will pal 50i have true 25p? better for film out?

folks, there's been some speculation that pal fx1-e cineframe 25 being progressive?

i know sony says their ccd is interlace only - any info about how the cineframe 25 might work for us going to film out? or just 50i?

sure, true 24p on HDV would have been the ultimate - but maybe that was too hard to deliver for this $$$ without compromising HDCAM/Varicam etc. - so is pal/ntsc switchable sony's way to make amends to filmmaking community?

thoughts?
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Old November 11th, 2004, 12:16 AM   #17
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"The HVR-Z1U HDV 1080 camcorder can record HDV, DVCAM and DV images at 60i, 50i, 30, 25 or 24 frames per second, in either SD or HD"


24 FRAMES PER SECOND.

Is this a lie?
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Old November 11th, 2004, 12:57 AM   #18
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It's not a lie. It'll do 24fps, but it's not true progressive. It's interpolated within the DSP.
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Old November 11th, 2004, 09:38 AM   #19
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Chris, how do we know that the 24 frame implementation is not true progessive? Just because the FX1 has a goofy, strange cadence, field juddering CineFrame mode doesn't mean that the Z1 uses that same mode.

Besides, isn't the 30 frame mode in the FX1 a true 30-frame progressive? Or is it also interpolated in the DSP from the 60i recording? Is it possible that the 25 frame mode could be a true progressive, or that the 24 frame mode in the Z1 could be different?

*EDIT* Sorry, Chris - I should do some more reading before posting. Looks like no real progressive, but still probably quite viable for indie films, by doing a 50i or 60i to film transfer.
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Old November 11th, 2004, 10:47 AM   #20
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Direct from the possibly stupid question category:

If one was using an SD delivery format, couldn't you achieve a progressive 540-line 30fps by throwing away every other field? Or applying a more elegant pulldown for 24fps? I know this is heresy to many, and defeats the purpose of the camera, but 540 will contain more information than 480 and more so again when the 1440/1920 is factored in.
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Old November 11th, 2004, 11:40 AM   #21
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<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Gannon : Direct from the possibly stupid question category:

If one was using an SD delivery format, couldn't you achieve a progressive 540-line 30fps by throwing away every other field? Or applying a more elegant pulldown for 24fps? I know this is heresy to many, and defeats the purpose of the camera, but 540 will contain more information than 480 and more so again when the 1440/1920 is factored in. -->>>

Not a stupid question at all... The amount of detail and temporal information in a 1080-60i video stream is massive compared to a 480-24p stream. There is more than enough information/detail there to down-convert to SD and come away with a stunning image. Playing with Kaku's sample clips here, I seem to be getting better results from his 1080i footage than I do out of my 24P DVX100. There's no way to tell for sure until I get my hands on the camera and shoot my own video, but so far the 1080i converts very well to 1080p-24 and also converts very well to 480p at both 30 and 24 fps. I have played with conversion to 1280x720p as well at 30 and 24 fps and it doesn't look much different than the 1080i footage, it seems to get a bit softer with the resampling of the image.

I'm holding out and making my DVX last until this spring, but I'm ready to upgrade now. Mostly, I need to wait for XLR inputs so the FX1 isn't quite what I need and the Z1 seems to be just right (some of the audio issues do make me a bit nervous, though). So, when the time comes, I'll probably be buying the Z1 unless Panasonic or someone else comes out with a true 24p HDV camera.
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Old November 11th, 2004, 11:57 AM   #22
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Thanks, Jeff. That's exactly what I was looking for. I'm on the same timeline as you for a new camera and was all but settled on the XL2 before Sony made their announcement.

The nagging question I still have is the aquisition codec. With Avid and Apple promising native HDV support soon, does this mean editing MPEG-2? That kind of spooks me a bit. I'd be more comfortable with a less complicated editing codec that will accept effects cleaner and quicker even if I lost some info in the transcode since I'll be losing even more in the final output anyway.
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Old November 11th, 2004, 01:28 PM   #23
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You're still not acquiring at 24Hz, so the timing will be slightly off, but it would be VERY close.

The press release says it "RECORDS" images at 24 frames per second. That means, to me, 24p, and I would consider anything short of an actual 24 Hz CCD imager a lie. That's just me.
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Old November 11th, 2004, 01:57 PM   #24
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Jeff Kilgoe - how are you doing your downconversion?

Jeff, how are you doing your downconversion to simulate 1080 24p? Can you give your recipe? I've tried Barry Green's and while it looks kinda okay, it's still not quite 24p like.

I have to agree with latest posts here - I just shot DVX100 24p and made a 24p DVD and compared to DVD I made from Kaku's footage - you just SEE so much MORE in the SD DVD from HDV source - it's incredible, the amount of detail... Gawd, this new pro Z1 is gonna be the new indie filmmaking darling for sure... mostly because filmmakers will feel at last they can project on the big screen and do their work justice...

does anyone know if the cineframe 25 on pal ie. 50i mode is more of a "true" progressive?

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Old November 11th, 2004, 02:51 PM   #25
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Unless the CCD is capturing at 24 or 25 Hz, it's not going to be true progressive. Every field is temporally going to be different. So to construct a progressive frame, you have to take two pictures that are, in time, 1/50th of a second apart. WHen there's motion, there will be combing. The only way to fix combing is to blur, and so you'll lose resolution.
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Old November 11th, 2004, 05:08 PM   #26
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Notice Sony announced the pro HDV

Sony announced their Pro HDV camera with XLR connectors yesterday. $4700 list price or about $1,000 more than the consumer unit.

Go to the Weva web site if you want to read the press release. I couldn't find it on the Sony site. Weva allows you to read the releases without being a member. www.weva.com
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