Dropouts and tape... at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony HDV and DV Camera Systems > Sony HVR-Z1 / HDR-FX1

Sony HVR-Z1 / HDR-FX1
Pro and consumer versions of this Sony 3-CCD HDV camcorder.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 22nd, 2004, 01:42 PM   #1
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Orem, UT
Posts: 76
Dropouts and tape...

Over on another forum there's been mention of people shooting with an FX1 experiencing dropouts. They've been attributing it to the camera in HDV mode, but it sounds more like a tape issue to me. So I was just curious what those of you with an FX1 are using in your pride and joy and if you've experienced any of these "dropouts"?

Thanks!
Curtis Rhoads is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2004, 02:07 PM   #2
Obstreperous Rex
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: San Marcos, TX
Posts: 26,900
Images: 513
I would imagine it's a tape issue. Sony recommends their DVM-63HD cassette and I think it would be a mistake not to go that route.

Tape is the single least expensive component in the production chain. Therefore, why bother with anything other than the best quality tape you can find. Affordability should not be an issue here.
__________________
CH

Search DV Info Net | DV Info Net Sponsors | A Decade (+5) of DVi | ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!
Chris Hurd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2004, 02:48 PM   #3
Barry Wan Kenobi
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 3,863
Dropouts in HDV are potentially far more disastrous than they are in DV.

In DV, every frame is compressed as a complete and distinct unit, not relying on anything else. So if you get a one-frame dropout on DV, you'll get one glitched frame (which can frequently be reasonably repaired in post).

But in HDV, which uses a group of pictures between 6 and (I believe) 15 frames, a one-frame dropout has the potential to affect all frames after it until the next I-frame. With HDV, each frame is built from the prior frame, within each group (group of six for 720P, group of 15 for 1080i). So a change to one frame will affect all the subsequent frames in the group, and may affect frames prior, if the dropout affects a bidirectional frame. So what would otherwise be a minimal event (a one-frame dropout) could end up scragging up to 15 frames!

For this reason, I believe with HDV you should use the very highest quality tape you can possibly get, and I would heartily recommend using a dropout-proof recording system such as the FireStore (Firestore has announced plans to support recording HDV) or DV Rack (assuming they update it to support HDV).
Barry Green is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2004, 09:39 PM   #4
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Orleans, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 36
I agree with the others comments above. But I would add this:

Dropout can happen on any format and any tape stock. The best policy is, as was mentioned before, to use the best possible tape stock you can find. Why settle for less?

But, I would also add that the mini-dv tape format is essentially the same no matter what packaging the tape may have. Using a good name brand Mini-DV tape will, I believe, 999 times out of 1000 give you everything that the awesome name brand tape (that costs $4 dollars more) will provide.

So don't go crazy. All Mini-DV tape stock is essentially the same.

But, if you spot a tape stock that looks sketch... Its worth to spend the extra little bit on something you can trust.

Give me another week or so with the camera and I'll tell you if any dropouts have occured. But quite honestly, I don't think there's much of an issue with that problem.

Hope it helps,

-alex
__________________
---------------------------
Alexander Papaps
Senior Producer

JumpPoint Entertainment
www.jumppoint.org
Alex Pappas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2004, 12:21 AM   #5
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 133
I have only used Panasonic MQ tapes in my two FX1's and I have seen a few tape hits. Using brand new Panasonic MQ tape I think I have seen about one tape hit per 60 minute tape, after recording about 10 tapes in the cameras.

I did make the mistake of re-using a Panasonic MQ tape that had orginally been recorded in DV25 and it had tons of tape hits, 30-40 at least. I was just playing around and would never do such a thing for a real shoot. But it is something to know.

That 15 frame GOP can be painful. Most of my tape hits have been about a half second long!

As far as I know Panasonic MQ is one of the best miniDV tapes made.
__________________
Mahalo,
Dusty
Dustin Cross is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2004, 04:42 AM   #6
New Boot
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 21
I make sure to only use Sony tape in my Sony camera. I have very few issues with dropout, and when I buy the Z1 I will continue to do that. Sony recommend their new extra high quality tape for the FX1/Z1, and for a few extra bucks, im sure its worth it.
Shealan Forshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2004, 07:43 AM   #7
Obstreperous Rex
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: San Marcos, TX
Posts: 26,900
Images: 513
I must agree with Shealan -- the Sony DVM-63HD is the tape of choice for their HDV cameras. To quote the press release for the DVM-63HD:

"Designed in conjunction with the new camcorder and VTR is Sony's recommended professional media for HDV applications, DigitalMaster™ videotape. These 63-minute cassettes use Sony's AME II Technology and its unique dual-active magnetic layers. By improving on an already successful product, the new AME II manufacturing process employs Hyper Evaticle IV magnetic grains, improved lubricants, and a refined Diamond-Like Carbon (DLC) layer. DigitalMaster exhibits greater packing density of magnetic grains, higher retentivity, higher output and lower noise. The result is a more robust tape with fewer dropouts and errors."

See also Sony's Technical Fact Sheet for the DVM-53HD Cassette.
__________________
CH

Search DV Info Net | DV Info Net Sponsors | A Decade (+5) of DVi | ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!
Chris Hurd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2004, 09:28 AM   #8
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 414
Okay, I know that tape is the cheapest link in the production process and whatnot...but I heard somewhere that MSRP on this tape is going to be around $18 (US). Is this correct? If so that's a pretty big difference from the $3-$4 I'm usually paying now...
Kevin Dooley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2004, 09:41 AM   #9
Obstreperous Rex
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: San Marcos, TX
Posts: 26,900
Images: 513
Everything is relative. Look at it this way: $18 is a heck of a lot less to pay, compared to $50 for an HDCAM cassette.

You know those nationwide Capital One spots, "What's in Your Wallet?" I'd like to paraphrase that to "What Are Your Images Worth?"
__________________
CH

Search DV Info Net | DV Info Net Sponsors | A Decade (+5) of DVi | ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!
Chris Hurd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2004, 11:23 AM   #10
Trustee
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Suwanee, GA
Posts: 1,241
<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Dooley : Okay, I know that tape is the cheapest link in the production process and whatnot...but I heard somewhere that MSRP on this tape is going to be around $18 (US). Is this correct? If so that's a pretty big difference from the $3-$4 I'm usually paying now... -->>>
$13.99 for 10 or more from our sponsor B&H Photo Video. :D
George Ellis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2004, 11:45 AM   #11
New Boot
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 21
Nice plug :)
Shealan Forshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24th, 2004, 09:45 AM   #12
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 60
IMHO, $18 (USD) for 60-minutes of relatively worry-free recording is nothing.
I like the idea of using a Firestore drive for 100% certainty.
(Unless, of course, the HDD dies.)
Carl Merritt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24th, 2004, 10:11 AM   #13
Obstreperous Rex
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: San Marcos, TX
Posts: 26,900
Images: 513
I agree. Tape costs are chicken feed. $18 is pocket change for high definition video. Roll tape and the FireStore, and you've got a very reliable system with some built-in redundancy.
__________________
CH

Search DV Info Net | DV Info Net Sponsors | A Decade (+5) of DVi | ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!
Chris Hurd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24th, 2004, 10:41 AM   #14
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Orleans, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 36
I agree with the above... Spend the money properly.

But to be honest, I've never heard of the FireStore..
Yet another product I'm going to have to look into.

-alex
__________________
---------------------------
Alexander Papaps
Senior Producer

JumpPoint Entertainment
www.jumppoint.org
Alex Pappas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24th, 2004, 11:58 AM   #15
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 133
I agree that getting the best tape is worth the money, but I have never found a Sony miniDV tape that was as reliable as Panasonic MQ, or any other miniDV tape that was as reliable as the Panasonic MQ. I have had much better experience with $7 Panasonic MQ tapes than I have with $20 Sony DVCAM tapes. So I wouldn't rely on these new tapes until we know it works better.
__________________
Mahalo,
Dusty
Dustin Cross is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony HDV and DV Camera Systems > Sony HVR-Z1 / HDR-FX1

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:42 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network