Cineframe 24 on FX1 unusable ! - Page 2 at DVinfo.net

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Sony HVR-Z1 / HDR-FX1
Pro and consumer versions of this Sony 3-CCD HDV camcorder.


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Old December 7th, 2004, 10:31 PM   #16
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I prefer the clean look that I can mess around with in post, much like I NEVER used Frame Mode or whatever on my old XL-1.

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Old December 12th, 2004, 02:20 PM   #17
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Cineframe 24 on FX1 unusuable !

I figured out a way to get the full frames out of HDR-FX1 Cineframe 24 footage.
I was able to take out the 2:3 pulldown of the m2t stream. The result of the test is dissapointing.

The result is downloadable (7.5 meg):
http://home.comcast.net/~chalbers/fx1_24ptest.mov

This is what I did:

1. I moved the m2t clip one frame-line up because hdv streams are upper field first (I have no clue why it's different from DV). This way I changed it so that lower field are first for futher tests.
2. I seperated both fields and resized them to 720*240
3. I interlaced the fields back together to 720*480 with lower field first.
4. I imported to Vegas 5.0b and changed it into a 29.9i DV avi file.
5. Then I changed my Vegas scene to 24p, imported the DV file I just created and took out the 2:3 pulldown of the footage.
6. I Exported the result into a quicktime file to view

I right away noticed the strobing on the passing biker in the 24p footage. At first I thought it was shutter speed strobing since it was probably shot with 1/60 th. But then after walking through the frames I noticed that the motion distances between frames of the biker was different and not constant. This pretty much shows it's not really shot in a 24p time base.

So much for my FX1 excitement !

Frank
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Old December 12th, 2004, 04:53 PM   #18
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It's not completely unusable, it just doesn't look like 24p. It's kind of a cool effect.

In fact, that reminded me of how directors are making battle scenes in movies these days, like Gladiator or Gangs of New York, fast and jittery.
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Old December 12th, 2004, 06:48 PM   #19
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Agreed. How "usable" CF24 is will be an individual decision each shooter makes. Some folks will choose not to use it -- yet others will. CF24 is simply an aesthetic choice and nothing more. It's a particular look. Some people will like it and some will not. It is misleading and inaccurate to call it "unusable." It is there to be used if the shooter so chooses.
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Old December 12th, 2004, 09:52 PM   #20
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OK,

Here's the part I don't get.

Sony, and just about everyone on this list have stated this camera is not a 24p camera.

Yet some how, people still like to prove that it is 24p.

READ THIS: THE CAMERA IS A 1080i - 60 CAMERA IT IS NOT 24 FRAMES, IT IS NOT PROGRESSIVE. IT IS NOT A FILM CAMERA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What the camera is is the best choice to record the highest definition image you can for a price that is unbelievable!

Celebrate what it does, don't belittle it for what it doesn't do!

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Old December 12th, 2004, 10:18 PM   #21
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Soon both Mac and PC's will have support for changing the footage from 60i to 24p. DVFilm offers Windows users 24p HDV Maker support.

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Old December 12th, 2004, 10:33 PM   #22
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did you read this thread about how to use CF24?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=35776
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Old December 13th, 2004, 12:11 AM   #23
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<<<-- Originally posted by John Gaspain : got this from mullens site http://home.earthlink.net/~dvcnyc/Sony%20HDR-FX1.htm

try this out and let us know if it fixes the "Strobing", I highlighted the most pertinant in BOLD below: -->>>

I posted this before somewhere else . But since this thread is so close to it. Here are my results and attempts to take out the 24p info of the C24 in the 2:3 pulldown data.

I figured out a way to get the full frames out of HDR-FX1 Cineframe 24 footage.
I was able to take out the 2:3 pulldown of the m2t stream. The result of the test is dissapointing.

The result is downloadable (7.5 meg):
http://home.comcast.net/~chalbers/fx1_24ptest.mov

This is what I did:

1. I moved the m2t clip one frame-line up because hdv streams are upper field first (I have no clue why it's different from DV). This way I changed it so that lower field are first for futher tests.
2. I seperated both fields and resized them to 720*240
3. I interlaced the fields back together to 720*480 with lower field first.
4. I imported to Vegas 5.0b and changed it into a 29.9i DV avi file.
5. Then I changed my Vegas scene to 24p, imported the DV file I just created and took out the 2:3 pulldown of the footage.
6. I Exported the result into a quicktime file to view

I right away noticed the strobing on the passing biker in the 24p footage. It is the shutter speed strobing since it was probably shot with 1/60 th. But then after walking through the frames I noticed there was more to it. The motion distances between frames of the biker was different and not constant. This pretty much shows it's not really shot in a 24p time base.

So much for my FX1 excitement !

Frank
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Old December 13th, 2004, 12:13 AM   #24
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<<<-- Originally posted by John Gaspain : did you read this thread about how to use CF24?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=35776 -->>>

I added this thread to that one.
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Old December 13th, 2004, 01:12 AM   #25
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What Darren said is the truth. The FX1 is an interlaced 1080i camera designed to shoot 60i. And as that, it does a really nice job -- the footage viewed on a 1080i HD monitor is very impressive. Certainly more impressive than standard-def footage up-rezzed to 1080i.

The problem is, everyone's waiting for that magical 1080/24P camera. And the FX1 isn't it, no matter how much people want it to be. And Sony's inclusion of the bogus Cineframe 24 isn't helping matters.

After several days with the camera my conclusion was: if you want to shoot interlaced "looking through a window" HDV, the FX1 is a very impressive camera for a very low price. If you want to make film-looking video, make standard-def DVD's, or other purposes, the FX1 is not the best camera for that. But if your goal is to make eye-popping high-def interlaced video, the FX1 is here now and it can make you say "wow" when used for that purpose.
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Old December 13th, 2004, 01:14 AM   #26
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The problem is not the shutter speed! There's nothing wrong or excessively stroby about shooting XL2 24P at 1/60th, or DVX 24P at 1/60th, or film at 1/60th. I've got two film cameras with 150-degree shutters, both of which deliver approximately a 1/60th shutter speed, and they look fine -- they look like film.

It's not the pulldown scheme: there's nothing about reversing the pulldown out of CineFrame 24 that's going to make it look any better. Every hollywood film is shown on NTSC televisions with 2:3 pulldown. The DVX and XL2 both add 2:3 pulldown and look plenty filmlike.

The problem is the way that CineFrame 24 tries to create its 24 frames. And there's nothing that can be done about it. Cineframe 24 is not usable for a film look.

I do think people pursuing the film look from this camera will be more satisfied with Graeme or Marcus' post solutions rather than trying to use CineFrame 24.
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Old December 13th, 2004, 04:41 PM   #27
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Ive researched this question a lot recently.

The following is the current best way to get 1080P/24 in reverse price/angst order

1 Buy FX1E, use Algolith or Procoder 2 to use Adaptive De-interlace (ADI) and slow down to 24P

cf see the stars and stripes ADI'd in the pictures in the following white paper
http://www.algolith.com/fileadmin/do...thPlugInPR.pdf

2 Buy FX1, use Algolith or Procoder 2 to use Adaptive De-interlace to 30P, then use Algolith Timewarper (awesome) to improve frame blending when converting to 24P, see flash demo here

http://www.algolith.com/fileadmin/fl.../TWP/TWPDF.swf


3 Buy Cine Alta

As always I would suggest after conversion of a few frames, take them to your local print shop and have some laser printed slides made and screen them on your carousel for a resolution check.


PS CF30 and CF25 are only worthwhile for SD DVD targets
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Old December 13th, 2004, 05:46 PM   #28
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<<<-- Originally posted by John Jay :
PS CF30 and CF25 are only worthwhile for SD DVD targets -->>>

Why?
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Old December 13th, 2004, 06:26 PM   #29
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its my opinion , thats all
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Old December 13th, 2004, 10:29 PM   #30
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Or buy the 900 camera from Panasonic that does 24p SD and up-rez it to HD.

Or shoot in 1080i60 HDV and convert it using most kinds of software, like DVFilm Maker, etc.

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