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Sony HVR-Z1 / HDR-FX1
Pro and consumer versions of this Sony 3-CCD HDV camcorder.


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Old December 22nd, 2004, 12:31 PM   #1
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Dsr 500 vs FX1/Z1

A friend of mine shot a feature with DSR500 last month and digitally projected on cinema screen . It was very good in color and resolution even after being blown up to the cinema screen.

Question is can sony fx1/z1 beat it in quality and color if projected to the same screen.....remember DSR 500 is 2/3ccd?


PLease guide...and thanks in advance
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Old December 22nd, 2004, 12:53 PM   #2
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I'll actually say the FX1 is better than the DSR500 in overall image quality, under ideal shooting conditions.

THe DSR500 will be better in handling a wider range of exposure lattitude.

They will be comparable in lack of chroma noise.

But projected on a huge display the FX1 resolution advantage will outweigh all other factors that contribute to image quality.

Good glass on the DSR500 won't make up for the deficiences in the recording format's resolution, plus since you output DV25 colorspace, it's pretty bad.
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Old December 22nd, 2004, 01:09 PM   #3
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You can also pan and move your camera with the DSR500 with no artifacts.

That's something I still wonder myself how may affect potential projects to be shot using HDV.

But for slow moving scenes or fixed takes HDV should take the medal.


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Old December 22nd, 2004, 01:09 PM   #4
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Thanks Davi,

I think that answers my question...

Thanks again
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Old December 22nd, 2004, 01:13 PM   #5
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Thanks carlos,

so besides panning, I know there was no problem while panning on DSR 500 and I dont like the panning blurriness on Fx1.

Question

1. would the panning have same problem even in Z1?

2. Is it only the panning or even when the camera dolleys in /out or is mounted on crane..we will still see the blurriness.

3. what is the way this blurriness can be avoided ...my pana dvx100a is remarkable but it is time to move on and I am really looking forward to Z1.

PLease tell me theis blurriness is not objectionable on huge screen as it will magnify big time .

Thanks again guys and you guys are the best as ever.
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Old December 22nd, 2004, 01:16 PM   #6
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and I am sure DVx100 will not be as good as DSR 500 on big screen when shot on 24p even in 16:9 mode

any comments?


Thanks again
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Old December 22nd, 2004, 02:13 PM   #7
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I'm pretty sure the DSR will look better than the FX1 but that it's beside the point because I haven't seen them side by side.. There is no question however about comparing a 2/3 chipper and a 1/3 chipper.. they don't play in the same league.
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Old December 22nd, 2004, 02:23 PM   #8
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I havent used them side by side either, but I have shot hundreds of hours of footage on the DSR500 and while the DSR500 excels in exposure latitude and DOF, the FX1 can hold up its own.
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Old December 22nd, 2004, 02:47 PM   #9
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The feedback I am reading on several forums dealing with the FX1 being actually used and the Z1 on some tests that were made, their larger weakest points, common to both of them, are:

1) Fast objects going past the camera, either because the camera is panning, moving on a dolly or the subjects simply passing by, the image will develop an artifact that looks like a "crooked staircase". It's not clear to me if that happens during recording or at the camera itself. My guess is Sony must be doing something about that problem to see how it's solved or dealt with.

2) 1/2 second video/audio cancellings due to tape dropouts. This might be solved if you record on a different media, like HD or the soon to be released blue optical disc.

Both cases, IMO, put some interrogations marks on whether HDV should be used for certain applications. Particularly documentaries, where you can't prevent too much how you are going to shoot. Nervous shooting, fast movements will not be well dealt by HDV, at least for now.

One thing I wonder is what happens if HDV is taken up to a real HD editing suite.

I don't know if it's time to move from a DVX100A to an HDV. It will mostly depend on what are you going to shoot. If you can predict your movements, HDV should provide great production value in image quality.


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Old December 22nd, 2004, 03:19 PM   #10
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Thanks Alfred, Davi and Carlos..

I definately dont want the artifact of staircase or the motion blur because there is going to be movement in every shot . In some shots it might be even faster. To buy a z1 and then later cant fix the motion in post would be a loss of time and money both.

The objective is definately big screen no matter what the camera . I was just thinking to rent DSR 500 for a month or so would be same as buying out the Z1 . But the feature will definately be projected on the cinema in toronto/ mississauga.

If you guys have experience would DVX be able to project the film ...ok not as good as DSR500 but close ....shot in 24p at 16:9
or with anamorphic lens?


Thanks a mill... again guys
you and your experience rock...
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Old December 22nd, 2004, 05:00 PM   #11
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The DSR 500 and 570 have native 16:9 chips that are supposed to be outstanding. For a theatrical movie, DOF may be important to you (DSR a must) but then again it may not.

I think your question should be if the Pana is good enough for your needs instead of comparing it to the DSR since the comparison isn't really fair IMHO.

Many people here will swear by the DVX though!
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Old December 22nd, 2004, 05:13 PM   #12
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1) Fast objects going past the camera, either because the camera is panning, moving on a dolly or the subjects simply passing by, the image will develop an artifact that looks like a "crooked staircase". It's not clear to me if that happens during recording or at the camera itself. My guess is Sony must be doing something about that problem to see how it's solved or dealt with.

I have not seen any of that artifacts you talked about, did you actually see it or you heard it from someone? It might got softer but no artifacts.

2) 1/2 second video/audio cancellings due to tape dropouts. This might be solved if you record on a different media, like HD or the soon to be released blue optical disc.

I have about 16 hrs. on it and I use the Sony Pr tape and did not see any drop out, half a second freeze or anything like that.

The DSR500 definetly has much better latitude, and so more forgiving if your lightning if it is not right but it can't compare to FX1 in term or resolution, so take your pick, which do you have more control of?
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Old December 22nd, 2004, 06:25 PM   #13
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<<<-- Originally posted by Khoi Pham :
I have not seen any of that artifacts you talked about, did you actually see it or you heard it from someone? It might got softer but no artifacts. -->>>

Of course I wouldn't talk about something somebody told me, at least without mentioning so.

I have just tried to find the URLs to go see it. One clip is a caroussel with some horses up front. Camera is on the carroussel, so the background is swirling. Every time there's something vertical you get that crooked staircase effecct. Another clip is a surfing shot, taken from the beach, camera on a tripod. Every time someone passes by there's the artifact.

Do tell me if that may be caused by something else and not the camera, as I would like to believe it is not.

Better yet: do some pans and put the clips somewhere.

<<<--
I have about 16 hrs. on it and I use the Sony Pr tape and did not see any drop out, half a second freeze or anything like that.

The DSR500 definetly has much better latitude, and so more forgiving if your lightning if it is not right but it can't compare to FX1 in term or resolution, so take your pick, which do you have more control of? -->>>

The dropout is something I could live with as minor problem. But there are several reports from users that had it. I'm glad to hear that you didn't have the problem.

Perhaps the ideal thing would be to get the portable HDV recorder soon to be released and use the DSR500 as a camera...


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Old December 22nd, 2004, 06:36 PM   #14
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That is pretty bad artifacts, I don't think anybody would buy a camera with such artifacts, might as well buy a still camera then, what good is it for if it has artifacts when there is movement? maybe the footage you saw was shot in DV widescreen mode, heh heh,once I admit when I was playing around with the camera, I thought the picture only looks slightly better than my DSR300 and yeah there was stair step even with no movement, and what the heck is wrong with all these people on the forum was just raving about it, I was getting ready to send the darn thing back to Sony when I remember that I had the component out on 480i, and I switch it back to 1080i and heh heh holy moly I'm happy.
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Old December 23rd, 2004, 12:32 AM   #15
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<<<-- Originally posted by Carlos E. Martinez : <<<-- Originally posted by Khoi Pham :
I have not seen any of that artifacts you talked about, did you actually see it or you heard it from someone? It might got softer but no artifacts. -->>>

Of course I wouldn't talk about something somebody told me, at least without mentioning so.

I have just tried to find the URLs to go see it. One clip is a caroussel with some horses up front. Camera is on the carroussel, so the background is swirling. Every time there's something vertical you get that crooked staircase effecct. Another clip is a surfing shot, taken from the beach, camera on a tripod. Every time someone passes by there's the artifact.

Do tell me if that may be caused by something else and not the camera, as I would like to believe it is not.

Better yet: do some pans and put the clips somewhere.

Carlos -->>>

So you are saying that you don't have the cam or access to it, or even un-encoded, raw m2t sample clips from the FX1; and that your judgement is based on the analysis of material that has been re-encoded for web distribution.

It's a shame Kaku Ito's m2t files aren't available for you to analyze.

Like Khoi, I have not seen any 'artifacts' in any of the FX1 material I've shot, including high motion stuff of helicopters performing acrobatics. What I have noticed is the occassional tendency to 'ghost' movement in areas of very low light, while well lit areas hold up perfectly. Some footage I shot of a friends' band exhibits this behaviour in the almost nil lit audience, while the well lit band in the same frame is fine. This effect could be down to the MPEG2 encoding algorithm, or more likely the motion stabilisation, which I had on (the low setting), as I was forced to shoot hand held.

I have encountered the 'dropout' situation, but strangely only when playing back to HDTV via component. The dropouts occured in different positions on subsequent re-plays of the tape, leading me to believe the cause might be something else than the recording media.
To add to the quandary, i-Link captures were fine.

Harish...It seems to me that you should be out organizing demo's of the cameras you want to use for such an important project, rather than trusting someone else's judgement.
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