Sony Z1: panning problem... at DVinfo.net

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Sony HVR-Z1 / HDR-FX1
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Old June 2nd, 2005, 11:16 AM   #1
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Sony Z1: panning problem...

Has anyone else noticed this problem???

Though it's not issue when recorded in the Sony Z1 video camera, I have noticed that with HDV footage brought into FCP 5 from the Z1, anything involving pans translated into jittery, strobelike footage when viewed in FCP 5.

And it only gets worse when you see that panning footage as an Mpeg2 file on a standard DVD. Everything within the pan looks strobelike, edges are ghosted, not smooth. The pans make everything you see in the frame look jittery.

Is this the result of that long GOP Mpeg 2 issue everyone is talking about???

- Nicholas
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Old June 2nd, 2005, 11:37 AM   #2
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i saw videos too with panning problem
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Old June 2nd, 2005, 11:53 AM   #3
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Hi did fast and slow pans with the Z1. Never had any problem with that. And thats still ok when capturing into Premiere as Cineform, or direct MPEG2.

Can you show something ?

Peter
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Old June 2nd, 2005, 05:51 PM   #4
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Hello,

Are you using camera using either the Cineframe 30 or Cineframe 24 modes?? I have FX1, which only has Cinefremae 30 mode, and I have seen strobiness on pans.. Also at NAB I couuld see the same thing on Z1 when in the Cineframe modes..

Mike Moncrief
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Old June 2nd, 2005, 06:02 PM   #5
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"I have FX1, which only has Cinefremae 30 mode,"

If it's the NTSC version it has Cinemaframe 24 as well
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Old June 2nd, 2005, 06:20 PM   #6
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Hello,

ooops sorry i meant to say the Cineframe 25 mode is not available on the FX1 (no pal of course)
I stand corrected..
Mike Moncrief
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Old June 2nd, 2005, 08:58 PM   #7
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I did not shoot in Cineframe mode

Sorry guys,

This problem is occurring in regular 1080i mode. I was not in Cineframe 24 or or Cineframe 30 mode when I experienced this problem. That's what worries me.

I called FCP Pro tech Support, and they believe that it's just a limitation of the HDV format...that the Sony FX1 or Z1 are not good for shooting fast motion or doing pans because of the HDV structure...long-GOP issue.

That's why many people are now talking about Panasonic's forthcoming HVX200 since it will be able to shoot true HD 1080p. No long-GOP Mpeg 2 motion artifact issues.
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Old June 2nd, 2005, 09:15 PM   #8
 
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Nicholas,
can you post a short QT of the problem? I'm not experiencing this in Vegas or Premiere. I personally believe it's an FCP issue. Working in FCP 5, it can't give me the quality image that I get in Premiere Pro, Canopus Edius, or in Vegas. I'm still re-familiarizing myself with FCP though, so I'm not willing to condemn FCP just yet. There may be some hidden secrets somewhere that I've not discovered. However, on initial capture/load, FCP 5 ain't quite ready for primetime with HDV yet. Maybe Graeme has some secrets coming forth for FCP.
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Old June 3rd, 2005, 12:12 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Natteau
...This problem is occurring in regular 1080i mode. ... ...FCP Pro tech Support... believe that it's just a limitation of the HDV format...that the Sony FX1 or Z1 are not good for shooting fast motion or doing pans because of the HDV structure...long-GOP issue.
This is still a worry for me! I take delivery of a Z1 later this month despite having seen unpleasant blurring when slow panning. I was watching footage recorded on Z1 played back on the Sony VCR. I also saw occasional drop outs with 15 frame freezes but can overcome that with direct disk recording.

Have seen many comments on this board where some folks see the same MPEG 'limitations' but then see just as many folks telling us that footage is superb, or whatever. And some discussions get very unpleasant sadly. :(

I know some here have very high opinions of this HDV format, but some of the same are selling the stuff too. (Not referring to anyone in particular, just a fact of life.)

Is there not a definitive, objective review, anywhere on the web??? I would hate to buy the Z1 and then be told it is me that is wrong and not the camera if/when fuzzy pans and other 'artifacts' appear. That is the reply my gut feel tells me I would get, having seen similar comments here many times.
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Old June 3rd, 2005, 12:44 AM   #10
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assessing the Z1...

Hi Guys,

Please don't think I am trying to knock the Z1. I'm a Z1 owner and IMHO the image quality is superb. I tested it on my projector and was amazed.

My only issue with this camera concerns fast motion. I will try and post a QT movie in a few hours so you all can see what I am talking about.

But I am very interested in the comment that maybe FCP isn't really ready for HDV. That may well be possible. It's nice to know that there are no problems in Premier Pro. And I must say, that I didn't see the problem when looking at my footage from inside my camera, monitoring on the LCD screen.

So maybe FCP will soon have a fix for this. I must also add that I did not encounter this problem when downrezing from inside the camera from HDV to DV prior to bringing my footage into FCP. This panning problem only manifests itself in HDV when it gets into FCP.

QT movie to follow very shortly.

- Nicholas
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Old June 3rd, 2005, 01:20 AM   #11
 
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Nicholas, we shot a regional finals motocross event with several Z1's, including mounting one to a bike. With sufficient framerate, we didn't run into any more motion artifacts than you see with most any cam. Yes, they're there particularly in the slower framerates, but anything over 120 was good, and since we had plenty of light and lots of speed, mud flying, and aerial movement with horizontal lines behind, I used much faster speeds for most things on 3 of the 4 cams. In Premiere, Vegas, and Canopus, I've been very happy with the footage. I've only had FCP 5 on my system for a week, and spent only a couple hours with it thus far. So again, I can't confidently say that FCP isn't ready for HDV yet. Gimme a little more time, I'll have a better answer.
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Old June 3rd, 2005, 04:34 AM   #12
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Remember that the footage looks different when viewed on a computer monitor vs a HDTV. Footage even looks different when viewed on the camera LCD. When the FX-1 first came out people where complaining about blurring when panning- as they watched the footage on the LCD. When viewed on a HDTV however, there were no artifacts.

I've shot a bunch of fast motion footage with no problems.. I've seen some MPEG-2 artifacts when I examined still frames, but on playback, everything looks smooth - exactly how the MPEG-2 format was designed to act.
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Old June 3rd, 2005, 06:57 AM   #13
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In FCP, unless you have added hardware, you're monitoring in the little viewer window where you'll only ever see one field. That might make things look a little bad.

From what the original poster is describing, if it were not HDV, I'd be thinking field order issues, but HDV is a whole new game. Before FCP5, the only way I ever saw decent HDV footage was to take the mpeg and fully uncompress it to some nice, normal codec, and put up with the enourmous data rates it generates. Now with FCP5, I'm told it will only take in the HDV from the camera direct, not from a m2t or m2v on disc, but I've not had a chance to experiment with that.

I'm looking at chroma issue with HDV / PAL DV / MPEG 2 primarily at the moment, and some of the footage I've been sent does look pretty awful, but I have no idea what it would look like when converted back to HDV for viewing from the camera. I'll try and take a look and see though.

However, I was doing some downconversions using my software from 1080i to 720p24 and they were looking great, getting rid of a lot of the artifacting I was seeing in the process.

Graeme
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Old June 3rd, 2005, 07:17 AM   #14
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I've been using the Z1 for a couple of months and capturing HDV in Vegas 6 with CineForm HD Connect with auto conversion on capture to CF Intermediate, Medium setting. I've then output to two different delivery formats: wmv HD and back to HDV (m2t) for playback from the camera.

Camera playback on both a Sony Wega LCD HD TV and Christie LX 45 projector looks fabulous. Computer playback of the wmv HD looks a little soft.

But no strobing, etc as you describe. I'm delighted with the results I'm getting.
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Old June 3rd, 2005, 02:29 PM   #15
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how do I post the movie so can you can all see it???

Someone told me about "www.yousendit.com". But that web site asks me for an email address...who do I email my movie to at dvinfo.net so you can all see it? The file is ready to send now.

Thanks.

- Nicholas
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