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Old July 9th, 2005, 12:19 AM   #1
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8 things to consider if buying a Sony Z1

As a professional cameraman having now used a Z1 since they first came out I should like to offer my opinion as to why if considering purchasing a Z1 you may (read will) be better off waiting to see the new Panasonic and JVC cameras first.

Bad points:
1. Consistently loses time-code (4 frames) when set to the PRESET position. This occurs everytime the camera is switched off and when the heads power-down (after a few minutes of non use). A 'work-around' is to only shoot in REGENERATE mode.

2. Very slow to record sometimes (as much as 5 seconds) after pressing the record button. And this happens occasionally when you have just done another shot, not just after not shooting for 3 minutes when it always does it.
Do not use the Quick Start facility as this also causes the camera to drop time-code.

3. Camera is 2 stops (12db) 'slower' than PD170.

4. Daylight (Outdoor) factory white balance setting and also white balances done manually are incorrect and overly 'cool'.

5. Headset level very low even when set to loudest position.

6. Main operating control Iris button is positioned very poorly among other identically sized/shaped buttons. When hand-holding this means you keep accidentally hitting the wrong button. To turn the Iris control knob requires taking left hand away from supporting camera. A work-around' for the Iris button would be to be able to assign the it to one of the Assignable User buttons.

7. Cassette mechanism very 'fiddly'. I would imagine almost impossible to use with gloves on.

8. Sony 'Service'. I have an excellent relationship with my Sony Dealer but have had no response from Sony Head Office here (in Sydney-Australia) to any of these problems.

I should add that these problems are not just limited to MY camera but other Z1's I have either seen myself or have heard about from other professional camera 'folk' .

Of course there are many good points about the camera too - exceptional picture quality, great LCD, access to both PAL/NTSC shooting, personal control etc, etc, etc. but - like I said at the start - if you are thinking about getting a new camera - WAIT.
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Old July 9th, 2005, 01:52 AM   #2
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Hey Tony,

I'm also a doco maker from Sydney. I know your work.

I'm glad to read your post, because I hired a Z1 the other day, and found exactly the same sorts of issues you've described. Actually, I've been wondering why no one else (seemingly) has commented on these things.

The iris control layout definitely makes it very difficult to smoothly adjust aperture while you're shooting (if you switch between auto aperture, and manual, as I do frequently), and the mass of very similar feeling little buttons on the left side meant that, at least on my first shoot, I kept missing the auto focus button (the one used to quickly override manual focus) which has been such an easy way to focus with the PD150.

One thing I will add is that the hand grip on the right is formed in such a way that I really had to arch my right hand back to hold the camera one handed (while trying to adjust aperture, for example). As well, when searching for the most natural two-handed grip (and I default to a more-or-less 'SLR with telephoto lens' type position), I found the fingers of my left hand tended to end up on the focus ring (not in a good way) - where they would very easily shift focus.

I assumed that if I bought a Z1 I would end up attaching a long tripod plate to the camera and resting that on the heel of my left hand - or customising a bracket of some kind, so that the weight of the machine would be supported, while the fingers could rest lightly on the focus or zoom rings (in a good way).

These handling issues have been weighing on my mind - especially in the light of the new JVC with it's genuine shoulder mount layout.

As a final comment, I did find zooming in and manually focussing on the Sony to be fast and easy - the camera didn't focus as quickly and reliably as the PD150, using the old 'zoom in and hit the autofocus override button technique'.

The coloured focus-assist function was a nice asset to have, and it's another reason to look forward to the JVC (which also has this feature - and no auto focus).

Cheers

Nigel
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Old July 9th, 2005, 02:08 AM   #3
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Hi Nigel
You did a very sensible thing that I would recommend to everyone contemplating a new camera and that is to rent (or borrow) one for a day and actually use it on a real shoot. The pictures and specs in the glossy pamphlets look great but using the camera in a real situation is a better test by far.
I did a job the other day for a Japanese company who wanted me to shoot (in NTSC) straight DV (and 4x3 too!!!), and I must say even the pictures in DV looked far and away better than any I saw on the regular DV cameras (150/170 etc).
Cheers, Tony
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Old July 9th, 2005, 02:19 AM   #4
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Tony, Nigel . .thank you for this thread.

As a passionate Canon XM2 user and having now been in the biz for only 3 years, I'm collecting and researching masses of information about the pros and cons of HD work - from lighting thru' capture and thru' to editing. I'm watching and waiting. But your post has given me something to go and experience at a shop/outlet to observe for myself. Very valuable thread indeed. Oh yes!

Excellent, "Cold-Light-Of-Day" real world experiences here - thanks!

HD is a very fine technology. I can wait . . . maybe a year's time? I'll see . ..

Grazie
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Old July 9th, 2005, 07:06 AM   #5
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I just finished a 2 month shoot in India with this camera. It held up beautifully under very trying conditions of temperature, humidty, and being bounced around in the back of a jeep on roads that made my teeth loose. I have to take issue with a number of your points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wilson
As a professional cameraman having now used a Z1 since they first came out I should like to offer my opinion as to why if considering purchasing a Z1 you may (read will) be better off waiting to see the new Panasonic and JVC cameras first.
If you need a camera now there is no option. The JVC is delayed and who knows how ugly its warts will be. The Panasonic is 6 months away.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wilson
1. Consistently loses time-code (4 frames) when set to the PRESET position. This occurs everytime the camera is switched off and when the heads power-down (after a few minutes of non use). A 'work-around' is to only shoot in REGENERATE mode.
Regen is how I've been shooting for five years. Preset is unnecessary in the vast majority of shoots. I'll take your word for it that the problem is there in all models and of course it would be nice if this problem was fixed but I never encountered it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wilson
2. Very slow to record sometimes (as much as 5 seconds) after pressing the record button. And this happens occasionally when you have just done another shot, not just after not shooting for 3 minutes when it always does it.
Do not use the Quick Start facility as this also causes the camera to drop time-code.
I used the Quick start facility exclusively and had no problem with broken code. But I had no reason to use preset t/c.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wilson
3. Camera is 2 stops (12db) 'slower' than PD170.
It's also a lot less noisy than the pd170 so shooting at +12db is almost unnoticeable. While not as good a low light camera, it's useable in all but extreme low light situations. A variable intensity on-camera light helps a lot, though, in many situations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wilson
4. Daylight (Outdoor) factory white balance setting and also white balances done manually are incorrect and overly 'cool'.
I have not found this at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wilson
5. Headset level very low even when set to loudest position.
I use a low impedance headphone and the level is fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wilson
6. Main operating control Iris button is positioned very poorly among other identically sized/shaped buttons. When hand-holding this means you keep accidentally hitting the wrong button. To turn the Iris control knob requires taking left hand away from supporting camera. A work-around' for the Iris button would be to be able to assign the it to one of the Assignable User buttons.
I have no problems with either, positioning my hand differently and having trained my fingers to find the buttons and turn the knob.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wilson
7. Cassette mechanism very 'fiddly'. I would imagine almost impossible to use with gloves on.
This may be the weakest point of the camera. Not as good a mechanism as in the PD150/170

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wilson
Of course there are many good points about the camera too - exceptional picture quality, great LCD, access to both PAL/NTSC shooting, personal control etc, etc, etc. but - like I said at the start - if you are thinking about getting a new camera - WAIT.
With JVC's reputation for build quality I wouldn't tout that camera without having field tested it extensively. As for the Panasonic it's six months away and a completely different beast. At this point anyways, it will be of limited use for documentary production.

David
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Old July 9th, 2005, 07:58 AM   #6
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Don't forget JVC records only 24-30 Hz, while Sony records 50-60 Hz, so unless shoot film, it's of limited use. All broadcast is 50-60 Hz, even 720p. The JVC not have auto focus and JVC brand is hardly used in broadcast despite their wide product range, low pricing. You can deinterlace Sony or use CF mode and get 25-30 Hz, and 24 Hz easily with slow down. JVC claims magical way get smooth non-jerky 24-30p pans. You can't do it without losing resolution.

Radek
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Old July 9th, 2005, 12:00 PM   #7
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Hi David:

I am glad you took issue with all those points. I totally agree with you in basically all of them.

I also shoot primarily with Regen mode instead of Preset in ALL of the cameras and formats I have been shooting. No use for Preset for me.

The low light capability difference is not really that pronounced compared to the PD170. In fact I find this camera to be better in low light than the Sony PD170. Why? After enabling Black Stretch and using gain even at 12 db, the camera out performs the Sony PD170 providing better chroma and a much cleaner image than the PD170 although somewhat darker. This is something I can fix in post if I have to. With the PD170, I would get lots of grain even after fixing it in post. And one more thing about the low light issue, if you are shooting in HDV mode for downconversion to DV, to gain more low light capability, you can actually shoot on 1/30 shutter speed without losing much vertical resolution as if you were to shoot with the PD150-170 in 1/30 shutter speed. The loss in v. resolution with the Z1 is minimal even after downconverting to DV, while with the PD150-170 it is considerable. So if you need more light, go to 1/30 shutter speed with confidence, you gain one full stop without much picture quality loss and, at that that point, with Black Stretch enabled and gain set at 12db (you can even go to 18db w/o as much grain as the PD170), you are actually getting a better picture in low light than the PD170 !!!

You need to know how to use this camera before saying it is no good in low light.

For the headphones volume level, I found that it is extremely loud at the highest setting, much louder than the PD150-170. He must be using high impedance headphones or somehow there is a problem with his output. I am quite surprised he would say something like that. I found it to be actually quite the opposite.

About the white balance being cool after white balancing, not an issue for me. And even if it was an issue, Sony gave us a WHITE BALANCE SHIFT which we can customize to our liking. Want to have a warmer picture all the time after white balancing? ... have one of the PP settings with WHITE BALANCE SHIFT set to a warmer setting. After white balancing, you can make your picture look ORANGE automatically if you wish. (exagerating here).

About the iris control, actually I find it a blessing to have this control instead of the ridiculous wheel on the PD150-170. It may not be as good as having the iris control on the lens but I find this is the best iris control of any small DV camcorder short of having it on he lens.

About the placement of the other controls, I found this to be a much better layout than the PD150-170, with switches for White Balance, Gain, etc. instead of menu driven controls or buttons. The Function buttons are another great thing in this camera.

Beeing used to shoot with bigger cameras, I find this camera to be a blessing in terms of controls layout. And the focus ring and focus control beats by a mile what you find in the PD150-170. There is just no comparison whatsoever.

I can say with confidence that the Sony Z1 is one of the best cameras I have purchased in my long career as cameraman. And I have purchased, rented and owned many !


Quote:
Originally Posted by David Cherniack
I just finished a 2 month shoot in India with this camera. It held up beautifully under very trying conditions of temperature, humidty, and being bounced around in the back of a jeep on roads that made my teeth loose. I have to take issue with a number of your points.



If you need a camera now there is no option. The JVC is delayed and who knows how ugly its warts will be. The Panasonic is 6 months away.




Regen is how I've been shooting for five years. Preset is unnecessary in the vast majority of shoots. I'll take your word for it that the problem is there in all models and of course it would be nice if this problem was fixed but I never encountered it.




I used the Quick start facility exclusively and had no problem with broken code. But I had no reason to use preset t/c.




It's also a lot less noisy than the pd170 so shooting at +12db is almost unnoticeable. While not as good a low light camera, it's useable in all but extreme low light situations. A variable intensity on-camera light helps a lot, though, in many situations



I have not found this at all.



I use a low impedance headphone and the level is fine.



I have no problems with either, positioning my hand differently and having trained my fingers to find the buttons and turn the knob.



This may be the weakest point of the camera. Not as good a mechanism as in the PD150/170



With JVC's reputation for build quality I wouldn't tout that camera without having field tested it extensively. As for the Panasonic it's six months away and a completely different beast. At this point anyways, it will be of limited use for documentary production.

David

Last edited by Augusto Manuel; July 9th, 2005 at 01:31 PM. Reason: additional info
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Old July 9th, 2005, 08:57 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wilson
As a professional cameraman having now used a Z1 since they first came out I should like to offer my opinion as to why if considering purchasing a Z1 you may (read will) be better off waiting to see the new Panasonic and JVC cameras first.
So how much are you floggin' your Z1 for?
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Old July 9th, 2005, 08:59 PM   #9
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This is great!

We are getting information out there that will help people make informed choices when considering this camera.

My previous post was much more focussed on first impressions of handling the Z1 than on technical issues. In terms of image control, and image quality the Sony is an outstanding piece of technology, and it's obvious Sony have tried to give serious users much more control than their previous products at this price point. Can you believe Sony even give you options for the level of steadyshot?

I was aware of all of the image options and issues David and Augusto listed above, and agree with them. I simply didn't have the time to play extensively with all of the options. How much one could tweak white balance for just the right look was not the biggest issue. I had to shoot several hours of tape for a doco, and my main concern was being able to set up quickly for each shot, or make adjustments while shooting without compromising the shot.

If you're shooting with a tripod, and everything is relatively controlled - many of these handling issues may be much less significant. But when you are shooting on the run, I think many people will find themselves hitting the wrong button, or destabilising the camera moving their hand to manually adjust aperature, for example.

The aperture wheel of the PD150 was poor - I don't think the Z1 has solved that issue. What's the problem with putting the aperture ring on the lens, close to the body like on interchangeable lenses? The realistic goal of any design would be to maximise creative control without compromising the result - if you have to look at the camera while shooting, your attention, however subtly, will shift from your subject and your shot.

Having said that, none of the handling issues put me off using the Z1 - rather I was thinking about finding solutions to make it work for me.

What has given me much more hesitation over the last few weeks of visiting dvinfo.net has been the passionate technical debate about how unacceptable HDV is in 1080i or 720 24/25/30p depending on whose system you favour. I can't believe how many seemingly knowledgeable people have such divergent views (with impressive-sounding arguments to back them up).

All I know so far is - for a few thousand dollars we can now acquire images the quality of which we would have killed for even twelve months ago.

Cheers,

Nigel

Last edited by Nigel Traill; July 9th, 2005 at 09:29 PM.
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Old July 9th, 2005, 09:00 PM   #10
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Hi David and Augusto.
Sorry for slow response but am in (slightly!) different time-zone.
You both make some intersting points some of which I agree with and some not.
I too just came back from some rough spots (in Africa) and yes the camera held up well as have all the Sony DV cameras I’ve owned previously (VX1000, PD150) so no issues there.
I also agree about using REGEN mode – it makes changing rolls much faster as no stuffing around changing roll numbers and as long as the roll number is on the tape the editors are quite happy.
I also agree with you Augusto that the gain on the Z1 is excellent, but as I often had to use the higher gain settings on my 150 (I do a lot of verite shooting and always prefer to go with available light where ever possible) it still doesn’t get around the fact that in a situation where on the 170 you would be shooting with no gain on the Z1 you are already at +12 and that when you run out of gain on a Z1 you would still be on +6 on the 170 with two more stops to go.
With regard to shooting at a slower shutter speed I often do this (down to 3fps sometimes) but in situations where I’m shooting static shots. Most of my work is following people (with a sound-recordist shooting 100% sound) so a lower shutter speed is not an option. I did this once when shooting a chap giving a speech at a podium and it was OK as I kept the shot size to a waist shot and he wasn’t moving around very much but fortunately filming chaps standing still at podiums isn’t the bulk of my work.
With regard to the camera giving incorrect white balances in both the factory and manual settings. Yes it’s great being able to ‘on the fly’ go warmer or cooler (I have my assignment button one set to go warmer and three to go cooler) but standards are standards guys. What if different camera makers decided to each have there own ‘factory standard’ – what if –18 tone wasn’t actually –18 or globe manufacturers decided that daylight globes shoud be 5,100K and not 5,600k – I rest my case on that issue. I feel the same about the time-code too – if it doesn’t work properly then don’t include it as a feature of the camera.
David you say you don’t have an problem with the Quick Start feature because you use REGEN. Of course in that mode it is not a problem but how do you feel about a camera that sometimes takes 5seconds or more to actually start recording from the time you press the start button!! And like I say it’s not just after the heads have gone down. I’ve missed many shots through this. Perhaps your shooting is at a more relaxed pace than mine but I think this is a serious problem with this camera.
This bring me to the button positions and specifically the Iris button (and wheel). Perhaps you both do the bulk of your work on tripods where it would be far less of an issue but as I said most of my work is hand-held and (aside from when the LCD was tilted!!) the positioning of the Iris button and wheel on the 150/170 was perfect. I am still trying to adjust to the Z1 but whatever you do you have to take your hand away from supporting the camera to make adjustments to the iris wheel. On the 150/170 the fingers were adjacent to the focus/iris/wheel all the time without having to move hands around. I have yet to see any other professional camera where the Iris is not in a separate and prominent shape and position – and for good reason.
David/Augusto, I have never owned either a Panasonic or a JVC camera so cannot comment on some of the issues you refer to like build quality etc though David from what I have heard, the Panasonic most certainly doesn’t appear to lend itself to doco shoots (where 50 or 100-1 ratios are now quite common) if it only records HD to a memory card with a very short (is 8 mins correct!!) record time and can only record DV to tape.
Re headphone level I use the headphones mainly to confirm the radio link with the recordist is OK (as well as being able to hear people on radio mics if shooting from some distance away) so don’t wear the type with big enclosed ear-pads and till now have only used the ones I used with my other cameras (last with the 150) so I will look into the impedance issue and see if that was the problem.
At present the camera is with dealer (Macray Specialised Services in Artarmon Sydney-highly recommended) as they have a software upgrade that may I hope solve some of these issue – though I doubt the software update will reposition the Iris button and wheel.
Cheers, I look forward to more comments.
Tony
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Old July 9th, 2005, 09:31 PM   #11
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Tony,

You're right, Macray Specialised Services in Sydney - Highly recommended.

Speak to Paul Duckworth.

Cheers
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Old July 10th, 2005, 12:44 AM   #12
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Tony,
Sure you don't want to flog your less than perfect Z1 before the more perfect JVC and Pana cameras come out, and send the Z1's value through the floor?
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Old July 10th, 2005, 03:36 AM   #13
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I disagree with the handling part of your critique Tony. I find the camera (FX1 in my case) very easy to handle, once you've "programmed" the button positions into your mind, so you wont have to think while shooting.

Nigel, I also used to arch the hand back, but I've found that it is much easier to get a firm grip with the fingers over the zoom button with the smallest finger on the ridge close to the mic inputs. There's no button you can accidently fiddle with, since I suppose you never use lever controlled zooming.

The one thing I would like to change though just to make things perfect, would be to remove the "zoom ring/lever" button that is between the zoom and focus rings. I think that functions you use while recording should have the "best" positions on the camera, and this is certainly not such a function.

It could be replaced with two small buttons. One for the "Focus push auto" that autoadjusts the focus temporarily while shooting manual focus. An easy way of getting focus fast. Already available but at a hard to find position.

And one for the same kind of function but for iris. Temporarily set iris to an auto value and when button is released go back to manual iris. As it is now this can be accomplished by pressing the "man iris" button twice, which I find myself doing pretty often to get a decent iris before I tweak it.
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Old July 10th, 2005, 06:39 AM   #14
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Bjorn,

You want more buttons! Just kidding - good suggestions.

The auto-override of the manual focus setting has always been a fast and reliable way to get focus on the PD150 - I didn't find it as fast as manually focussing the Z1 - and as you observe it's easy to lose track of on the Z1.

I like your idea of a similar button for overriding manual focus (with one touch). In any event those function buttons should be impossible to lose track of while you are shooting

All the best,

Nigel
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Old July 10th, 2005, 11:50 AM   #15
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Nigel,

Actually I have to agree with you on that. On my last shoot with the Z1, I thought something was wrong with my camera and yes, I found the focus override not as responsive as the PD170 which I also own. In some situations it took forever to focus pressing that button and I actually had to focus manually using the focus ring because it was taking forever with the button override. However, I can put up with that since Sony now gave us a much better manual focus ring, with a professional feel. I would accept the trade-off.

The camera has so many advantages, that's why I find it such a great camera. However, if we are going to find some faults, yes, it is not perfect. If we are going to talk about imperfections, one of them is that it is just too heavy to hold compared to the Sony PD150-170. Once you add a camera light, wireless mic or any other accessory/attachment, boy! my arm and shoulder starts aching after shooting for a while with Z1.

We either need a monopod, a tripod or a shoulder mount brace with this heavy camera, otherwise, footage starts showing too much shakiness after being tired of hand holding this camera for a while. And I do not mind heavy cameras as long as I can put them on my shoulder and are well balanced but the Z1 cannot really be mounted on your shoulder without some sort of shoulder brace which I find it is a MUST with this camera.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigel Traill
Bjorn,

You want more buttons! Just kidding - good suggestions.

The auto-override of the manual focus setting has always been a fast and reliable way to get focus on the PD150 - I didn't find it as fast as manually focussing the Z1 - and as you observe it's easy to lose track of on the Z1.

I like your idea of a similar button for overriding manual focus (with one touch). In any event those function buttons should be impossible to lose track of while you are shooting

All the best,

Nigel

Last edited by Augusto Manuel; July 10th, 2005 at 11:56 AM. Reason: additional info
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