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Sony HVR-Z5 / HDR-FX1000
Pro and consumer versions of this Sony 3-CMOS HDV camcorder.


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Old December 25th, 2008, 01:41 PM   #1
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24p with FX1000

When I use the 24p setting on my FX1000 the shutter speed is automatcally switched to 48. What is this about?

Additionally on pans it is very rough in 24p mode with default settings.

Motion is choppy as well. In scenes with a minimum of motion the look is nice, however.

Last edited by Jeff Harper; December 25th, 2008 at 04:00 PM.
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Old December 25th, 2008, 05:03 PM   #2
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I've never used progressive mode because of the strobing look in the viewfinder - though up to now I've only used a SD VX2100. My friend with a Z7, shoots in interlaced mode, then turns his movies progressive on the timeline.

I take it this is not a typical way to use an HDV cam?
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Old December 26th, 2008, 04:01 AM   #3
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Don't know about other cams. The FX1000 has a specific 24pm setting, but you still have to do a coversion after capture with Cineform or some other way according to Chris B.
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Old December 27th, 2008, 12:04 AM   #4
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24p with FX1000

Hello and Happy Holidays
If you search through some previous threads you'll discover postings on 24p and may discover some of the answers you seek. Such as: shutter speeds when shooting
24P, motion with 24p etc.
You may also want to read into some threads on the Canon HV20/30. Apparently (unless newer info has altered the previous info) the process is supposed to be similar to the way the FX1000 delivers 24P.
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Old December 27th, 2008, 02:04 AM   #5
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Thanks Rick.
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Old December 27th, 2008, 03:38 AM   #6
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Update: Chris B has been working with a couple of us in the Vegas forum on the 24p feature as it applies to this cam and Vegas, and in the process I have learned the choppiness I've experienced with the 24p setting turned on with the FX1000 is normal, apparently.

It would seem to not be practical for use in my business, save for possibly some corporate stuff. For weddings I can't see it, not with multiple cams. Certainly not worth the cost of Cineform which is required to convert the footage. When I have an extra $800 to spend maybe I'll purchase it, as the 24p will be a nice feature.

The 24p is a very interesting feature and overall does show lots of promise.

Conversley, I have found the Cinema tone settingare are quite nice and while I initially thought it brought a "darkness" to the footage, (which it does) it really does look great. That setting alone adds somewhat of a cinematic look to my footage that I will definitely be using from time to time.
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Old December 27th, 2008, 04:07 AM   #7
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Guys - is it possible to link a clip that was done in the 24p mode compared to a similar clip done in standard interlaced mode, so I can get a handle on this feature. I'm set on ordering a Z5, but at I've seen a Z7 using progressive mode, and through the viewfinder it looks aweful - so strobey.
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Old December 27th, 2008, 04:19 AM   #8
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William, right click on the link and save. It is 140MB. This clip doesn't show the choppy portions of the video as it was edited to highlight the capabilities of the zoom and Cinema Tone Feature. It was shot in 24p, but does not appear as 24p because it has not been converted to progressive. Cineform is required to do that and I don't own it.

This clip is not what you're asking for, but something to look at as the footage will likely be similar to what your would get with Z5.

I have found the 24p setting is very strobie when panning too quickly. Scenes with fast motion also have the choppiness. As I mentioned before, I believe the 24p feature is of limited usefulness except in carefully thought out shooting scenarios.

http://jeffharpervideo.com/Videos/wmv/ChurchDemo.wmv

Last edited by Jeff Harper; December 27th, 2008 at 05:11 AM.
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Old December 27th, 2008, 04:22 AM   #9
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Thanks Jeff - I'll download it now.
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Old December 27th, 2008, 08:23 AM   #10
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You know, it's hard for me to believe that Sony would use a 24p pulldown in these camera's that there own NLE could not remove. Do they really want you to spend money on another company's software to do something that should be kept within a "SONY WORKFLOW"?
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Old December 27th, 2008, 08:59 AM   #11
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DSE, who is familiar with the corporate aspects of Sony much more than most any of us will ever be, has said that the camera company and the software company are separate entities that do not communicate with each other.

I agree with you Tim, it seems stupid and makes no sense from where I sit either.
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Old December 27th, 2008, 10:38 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Harper View Post
I have found the 24p setting is very strobie when panning too quickly. Scenes with fast motion also have the choppiness. As I mentioned before, I believe the 24p feature is of limited usefulness except in carefully thought out shooting scenarios.

http://jeffharpervideo.com/Videos/wmv/ChurchDemo.wmv
Jeff, I thought this was a great example of 24p. It displayed almost no choppiness (even when zooming) and toward the end also demonstrated the great low light of the 1000. For audio, did you just go with the onboard mike?
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Old December 27th, 2008, 11:23 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Harper View Post
When I use the 24p setting on my FX1000 on pans it is very rough in 24p mode with default settings.
Motion is choppy as well. In scenes with a minimum of motion the look is nice, however.
In 24p you're shooting 24 different stills per second. In 60i you're taking 60 different stills per second. There will be very obvious side-effects if you decide to use a frame rate invented generations ago. 24 fps was a film speed chosen at the time for cost and mechanical reasons, and because of the lowly frame rate the projectors were made to show each still twice in an effort to cut down on visible flicker, increasing image stutter yet again.

You've bought a car capable of 100 mph yet choose to run it in third gear at 50 mph. There is a price to be paid for this.

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Old December 27th, 2008, 11:46 AM   #14
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Yeah I don't quite understand the whole 24p thing myself. If back when they had the technology we have today, I doubt they would be trying to use 24 fps. I bet they'd use the best fps to get the smoothest motion possible. They were trying to advance forward, we seem to be taking steps back, even though we have everything to move forward. Who sets these trends? haha...
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Old December 27th, 2008, 12:32 PM   #15
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Tom and Ben are right on the money. The choppiness is the whole *point* of 24p. In an effort to look like film, it merely replicates the worst aspects of the "film look." If you're not outputting to film there is no point to shooting in this mode, ever, unless you really like that look. And even if you do, 30p would be better; it still looks just as crappy but is easier for your editor to handle.

Remember, 24 fps became the film standard only because it was the slowest they could run the film through the camera and still get an almost-okay picture (although some claim it was because of in-camera optical or magnetic sound; this may be true but I'm not sure). There's nothing "good" about 24 fps; it wasn't chosen for any aesthetic or artistic reason.

Why do people insist on using tools they don't understand and then complain about the results?
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