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Sony HVR-Z5 / HDR-FX1000
Pro and consumer versions of this Sony 3-CMOS HDV camcorder.


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Old February 1st, 2009, 10:28 AM   #31
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I wonder from what experience you are coming from . . .
In camera aditing? In a tape-camera?
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Old February 1st, 2009, 01:21 PM   #32
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Filming neatly

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Originally Posted by Jo Ouwejan View Post
I wonder from what experience you are coming from . . .
In camera aditing? In a tape-camera?
I am a full-time professional. By "in camera editing" I mean filming neatly with little or no editing in mind.
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Old February 1st, 2009, 01:44 PM   #33
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But surely, you must have known that a tape cam needs to wind the tape around the drum before it can start the take. Or do you mean to say, that the FX1000 needs more time to do that, than other cameras? Even with Quick Record?
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Old February 1st, 2009, 01:47 PM   #34
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It take a lonnnngg time with this camera.
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Old February 1st, 2009, 01:58 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Martin Duffy View Post
I am a full-time professional.
Then you know that all tape cams do this. If it takes four seconds to begin recording from post-STBY mode, then it's faster than the FX1, which takes about six seconds. From STBY mode the FX1 is near instantaneous, but the heads will spin down after about three minutes, resulting in a longer start-up time next time you hit record. If you are seeing a long delay after you hit record when STBY is lit up if the LCD, then maybe you need o adjust for this. If STBY is not visible, you can keep the heads spinning and the tape wound by just shooting a few seconds every couple of minutes to keep it in STBY mode.

By the way, Q.REC doesn't affect this at all; it just starts shooting in the middle of a GOP to get you going a slight bit quicker, at the expense of a half-second of garbled footage.

Your problems are entirely self-inflicted. In-cam editing? Are you serious? Grade schoolers do this. There's a reason a real director waits to hear "speed" from his sound and camera guys before he yells "Action!" Do you seriously wait to push the record button until someone is about to score? Why not start a few seconds before the play starts? Just because you have chosen a somewhat idiosyncratic workflow does not mean it's a problem with the camera, which was designed for those with more normal, conventional workflows.

Maybe you need to learn more about how to use your equipment and the fundamentals of production before you start screaming about how crappy your equipment is and how you want to dump it after three minutes because it doesn't do exactly what you want at all times.

Last edited by Adam Gold; February 1st, 2009 at 02:44 PM.
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Old February 1st, 2009, 02:37 PM   #36
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Martin, I think you need more time with the camera. I went through similar feelings when I first shot with mine.

I came from SD to this camera, so I was surprised with the long delay also. The camera is not perfect but it is capable of shooting great images. I am having to learn to shoot around the limitations imposed with the lens ramping. And while I know about this phenomena now, I didn't when I ordered it. My next camera will have 12x zoom, not 20x.

Everything about shooting with this camera is different than with my old cameras, and this is true with you as well.

I reacted very strongly in my initial post after shooting a wedding a few weeks ago, so I do understand. The VX2100 did not become legendary for it's ease of use for nothing, and I was truly spoiled with it.

The FX1000/Z5 is fine for what it does, and I suggest you give it more time. Cool off and accept the great support available here.

It is easy to overlook the pros of these cameras also. At full wide these are fantastic. The individual controls for the cam on the side are excellent, and I love the LCD, it is amazing.

You can sell the camera and get close to full price for it, so you are in a good position! However from what I've read with most HD cameras the tape delay when hitting record is pretty significant.

I don't know for a fact, but I would suspect when using the Z5 tapeless this would be a non-issue, so maybe that would be the answer for you. I can see why in a fast paced environment you wouldn't want to have to keep hitting the record button every so often to keep the camera ready to go.

Martin, consider cutting out your description of Sony, it was a bit too much.
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Old February 1st, 2009, 02:54 PM   #37
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You say you're a full time professional (FTP) Martin, but you bought the prosumer rather than the professional model of the camera? Your outburst brought a very measured response from Adam - himself an FTP. I wasn't even going to give you time of day as being a FTB myself I simply told myself you could have gone with the Z5 or the 151 and had instant start, stops and replay from the CF or SD card.

And I've never heard of a FTP who works with 'little or no editing in mind'. Imagine what a mess mess your local newspaper would be if its editor worked in the same way. National Geographic is the finest photographic magazine available for one very good reason - it's very heavily edited for content.

Just to put you right Jeff - your last 12x zoom camera had a ramping lens and so too will your next - even the Z7 has a ramping lens, as does the EX1. It's not a 'fault', it's a design requirement.

tom.
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Old February 1st, 2009, 03:37 PM   #38
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Tom, don't believe that in my post I labeled the f-drop in the cam a fault. And it has been pointed out before that lens ramping is present on the 2100. However it was minimal and never caused me significant issues with shooting closeups.

Lens ramping with the FX1000 is severe enough that it has. Just because there is a reason for it doesn't mean I have to like it. And just because I accept it doesn't mean I pretend it doesn't exist or that I am suddenly thrilled with it.

Not zooming in as far, as has been suggested eliminates the f-drop, but I cannot get the extreme closeups I like. Just experienced it again yesterday. When zooming in on the brides face, I have to stop short of where I want to be because the lens is wider to begin with.

While it won't bother many, it bothered me, as my extreme closeups were a hallmark of my shooting style.

I basically have had to eliminate them during the ceremony.

I have a friend who has the same issue with the cam (he hasn't bough it yet, only played with mine) for an alternative, like the Z7. Luckily for him he has the benefit of having my cam to play with.

I can't believe that every time I MENTION lens ramping the same things are pointed out to me. I am aware of it, I hate it, and I accept that I must work around it. I still like the camera, but do not plan to buy a camera with 20x zoom again, the compromise is too much for me, and the benefits to small.
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Old February 1st, 2009, 04:08 PM   #39
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Am I a pro?

Calm down everyone. Let me clarify.

What I meant by in camera editing was maybe the wrong term. What I meant was that I shoot very neat and its like I button on and off at the right times (like all shooters should). That sort of is editing in itself.

The sheer volume of what myself and my cameramen do requires very neat filming and no editing at all. We film about 170 Aussie rules games a season. Some have live commentary, some post commentary. We film alot of kids sport sometimes 10 games a Sunday and parents pay me $30 a DVD for a football game with commentary. There is no budget or time for editing.

As for questioning my professionalism I am not about to get into a war here on this front but I bought the FX because I was desperate at the time and always plan on getting a Z5 down the track. Its a money issue for me. If bucks wern't a problem I would have an EX3.

If anyone wants to view my many clips on line have a click around on my website Hobart Video Production and DVD Production, Online Video Specialists and I think that shows where it is all at for me. I am no expert but very passionate and call things as I see them at the time.

As for the 4 second delay I will reiterate that my TRV900 ( a 10yo cam) has almost instant rec/pause. My friend also used the FX yesterday and was also very frustrated by this delay. Its just a real downer. I wonder if other HD cams have the same problem.

As for my comments on the zoom well I think it is a B grade zoom rocker compared to other cams. As a critical feature that we use all the time surely they (Sony) could get this right.

I hope that makes sense and welcome any comments back as I value everyone's input and believe this forum is fantastic.
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Old February 1st, 2009, 04:18 PM   #40
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Sorry Sony

Martin, consider cutting out your description of Sony, it was a bit too much.[/QUOTE]



Jeff, I will cool off & thanks for the support but it really annoys me how the creators/develops miss features off here and there from model to model.

Its like you buy the new model knowing there is an improvement only to later realise that something is either missing or an issue.

Can't they just give us an XDCAM that is a bit lower in picture quality but has all the nice features?

I think I may be XDing it. I am going to hire one and see what its like.
]
Better talk to the wife and bank manger first!
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Old February 1st, 2009, 05:28 PM   #41
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A bit harsh Martin. Of all the users I've read, you are the only one that's commented on this. Longer synchs to get back into record are the nature of the HDV format as I've mentioned before, but it doesn't seem to be impacting others like you. It's also very unrealistic to think you can do 'in-camera editing' with HDV...it just won't work.

BTW, the Z5 would completely eliminate this issue if you got the digital card recorder which begins recording not only instantly, but also 'pre-records' 14 seconds BEFORE you hit record via its buffer.
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Old February 1st, 2009, 05:35 PM   #42
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I am not sure if this is same thing, but on the FX1 and presumably the Z1, after sitting stagnant for with tape wound in ready to go mode, for a specific period, the camera will eventually unthread, and go dormant, though still on. In that state it takes time to restart. Otherwise, the camera will start fairly quickly.
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Old February 1st, 2009, 05:41 PM   #43
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Yes, it is related Chris. You don't want that tape permanently wrapped around the head until it's next used. That's done by design and you wouldn't want a cam that doesn't do it.
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Old February 1st, 2009, 05:43 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo Ouwejan View Post
But surely, you must have known that a tape cam needs to wind the tape around the drum before it can start the take. Or do you mean to say, that the FX1000 needs more time to do that, than other cameras? Even with Quick Record?


Jo, I tried the quick record and it didn't seem to make any difference.

Tom, were you saying in another post that via the Z5 the delay would not be a proble?

Also, can you record onto the CF card and not tape or do you need tape rolling?

Thanks


Martin.
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Old February 1st, 2009, 05:46 PM   #45
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Jeff, Martin- I have been shooting the HD1000U for close to a yr now and I don't know if it is the CMOS or something else but it also has that substantial delay issue on the record. This may not apply to your units but I have noticed a trend. When filming lots of motion the delay is extended, sometimes twice as much (or more) as when starting with a still frame. i have not been able to confirm this but i believe it is a combination of the rolling shutter nature of CMOS combined with the Long GOP HDV codec making it difficult to establish the reference frame with so many rapid changes. With the HD1000u, i have found that if my subject and i are in motion when i need to record i have to start with something still (to get a quick ref frame for the GOP I theorize) and then i can jump back in the action. In a pinch, i once even put my hand in front of the lens and it seemed to fire up much faster than if I just waited for it to get the recording started. I would be eager to hear if this method helps you at all, you might try throwing a portable WB card in front while trying to fire it up if this helps. i can only theorize about the science of why this works but with the HD1000u it does help. It still will delay but not nearly so much.

Jeff- I am looking to get FX1000 or Z5U in the next few months. I am in Lexington, if I came up to your neck of the woods, would you be willing to give me a tour of your FX1000?

Thanks!

Oh, also Martin, this may be silly, but I think you are referring to the style I have always heard called "shooting for the edit." in which you don't shoot shots you don't need. I worked with a long time shooter who lived by this method and while it's not for me, it's not unheard of.
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