20X lens a bluff? at DVinfo.net

Martin Duffy · February 14th, 2009, 03:14 AM

Well it seems one is always learing new things in this video game.

Tom Hardwick could be spot on when he says there is little difference in the focal length (when zoomed right in) between the Z1 and FX1000/Z5.

I just did a comparision with the naked eye between my Sony TRV900 (12X) and the FX1000 (20X) and well there is virtually zip difference.

I will pop a test onto my computer and see what the result is but I am really amazed at this & honestly a bit disappointed.

As I film alot of sport I am going to need to source a 72mm 1.4/1.5 tele I would think. If not use the 30 digital extender feature although previous cameras that I have used digi zoom on have had mixedresults. Some days the footage looked fine and then other days not so good.

Per Johan Naesje · February 14th, 2009, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Duffy

I just did a comparision with the naked eye between my Sony TRV900 (12X) and the FX1000 (20X) and well there is virtually zip difference.

Well, it all depense on where the lens wide and telephoto start and ends!
Of curiousity I looked up the specs for this two camcorders and here is what I found:

Focal distance (35mm equivalent):
TRV 900 - 41.3 - 496mm
FX-1000 - 29.5 - 590mm

As you'll see, the FX-1000 has a much more wide-end than the TRV 900.

Noa Put · February 14th, 2009, 04:03 AM

Did a comparison with my xh-a1 which also has 20x zoom and mine was able to zoom in further then the fx1000, not that much but there was a difference. As Per said the fx1000 also has a wider angle lens then the xh-a1 which could explain why it doesn't zoom in the same amount as the xha1

John Wiley · February 14th, 2009, 06:43 AM

The FX1000 has a remarkably wider lens than previous Sony's. I think the FX7 starts at 39mm and goes out to 780mm. The FX1000's angle of view is equivelant to a FX7 with a 0.75 WA adapter mounted.

Daniel McPake · February 14th, 2009, 12:37 PM

As everyone above have said, its just due to the fact that the Z5's lens starts a lot "further away" due to the lens being so wide on its maximum.

But this is a great thing about this camera, as i have found it improves its versatility especially when filming indoors!

The only other thing to note is that with the 20x zoom lens, you will (like a lot of high zoom lenses) loose several stops of light and end up with an intial F1.6 going down to F3.4, but it is as i understand it an inherant side effect of all zoom lenses.

Edit - Just as shaun says the more expensive one's can keep their F setting all the way though the zoom, e.g. the ex1 lens, it is only 14x zoom i believe but doesn't loose any light at all!

Jeff Harper · February 14th, 2009, 03:16 PM

This 20x zoom thing, the lens ramping issue particularly, was the subject of my previous rants on the camera. The lens starts from a much wider position as has been stated. So the 20x is not a bluff, it is 20x.

But if you're coming from as 2100 or PD series cam it is a huge change.

I personally love the wider starting point with the cam, it is fantastic. On the other hand, in my work I find the lens ramping a huge issue for attempting to get a closeup during wedding ceremony when upfront. Because I'm starting wider, by the time I get zoomed in for an extreme closeup the exposure has gone to 3.4, and I cannot use it. I have to stop zooming at a point that is well before I want to be.

Unfortunately for me, I had no understanding of the lens technology behind the camera, or of the necessity for the lens ramping with this type of camera and I was very upset at this aspect of the camera. As has been said before it is not a defect, but it is what you get with a 20x zoom on an inexpensive cam.

Other than this the FX1000 is a fine camera and I do like it very much.

Tim Akin · February 14th, 2009, 04:20 PM

Jeff, when you say you can't use it, is that because there is not enough light?

Shaun Roemich · February 14th, 2009, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel McPake

The only other thing to note is that with the 20x zoom lens, you will (like a lot of high zoom lenses) loose several stops of light and end up with an intial F1.6 going down to F3.4, but it is as i understand it an inherant side effect of all zoom lenses.

Not necessarily ALL zoom lenses, but certainly the more budget oriented ones.

Jeff Harper · February 14th, 2009, 06:43 PM

No Tim, I can't use it because the iris has closed up to 3.4 and the image is underexposed.

Ken Ross · February 14th, 2009, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Duffy

Well it seems one is always learing new things in this video game.

Tom Hardwick could be spot on when he says there is little difference in the focal length (when zoomed right in) between the Z1 and FX1000/Z5.

I just did a comparision with the naked eye between my Sony TRV900 (12X) and the FX1000 (20X) and well there is virtually zip difference.

I will pop a test onto my computer and see what the result is but I am really amazed at this & honestly a bit disappointed.

As I film alot of sport I am going to need to source a 72mm 1.4/1.5 tele I would think. If not use the 30 digital extender feature although previous cameras that I have used digi zoom on have had mixedresults. Some days the footage looked fine and then other days not so good.

Martin, you've got to first determine how WIDE the initial image is at its widest to determine how close you ultimately get. There's nothing fraudulent about the 20X that Sony advertises. I think the fact that the 1000/Z5 start out sooo wide is fantastic, but it's also the reason you're not seeing it get as close as you apparently would like.

Personally, I find it's much better to lose a bit on the telephoto side and gain it at the wide angle side. I think Sony did a fabulous job with this lens. It's so much better than any Sony cam lens I've had before. For me I'd much rather start with a nice wide image that really takes advantage of the 16:9 aspect ratio than get in a bit closer. Compare the wide angle image with your TRV900 and I think you'll be shocked at how much more image you really get!!

Ken Ross · February 14th, 2009, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

No Tim, I can't use it because the iris has closed up to 3.4 and the image is underexposed.

But Jeff, if there's enough light, the cam should be adjusting the image so that your exposure remains consistent (assuming you're not in a totally manual, fixed setting setup). I can see if the light is insufficient you'll get a darkening of the image since the camera can't compensate short of really ramping up the gain if you let it.

Martin Duffy · February 15th, 2009, 01:20 AM

Ken, yeah no doubt having a real wide shot will be cool. Whilst I like to get in tight alot of my sports filming is also "wide" as the football play is often in front of me and players and coaches want to see where everyone is standing. Having the ability to be really wide is going to be great.

I well may just hit the 30X extender for those crucial moments when the play is well away from me. Its pretty cool how you can assign a button hit it and bang the camera is 30X. My Aussie Rules season starts up soon so I am looking forward to testing this out.

Alot of what I do is not going broadcast so a bit of digi zoom distortion here and there may be acceptable. Sometimes its better to capture the moment even if everything is not in the perfect world for us producers.

Hate to say it but the person watching at home will not even know the difference but will be a bit more excited seeing the play and "feeling it" as I cam zoomed in more.

Guys Aussie Rules is the most brilliiant game to film. I have filmed cars, bikes, people running, dancing concerts, weddings and "footy" for me is just brilliant!

Jeff on the lens ramping issue maybe just pop the camera into auto and see if you get some OK results that way. Then you are just concentrating on getting a good frame (that's of course if auto iris is doing the desired job). Hoping that may work but I can see your frustration when you have to change the way you film because a new camera doesn't do what the old one did.

A bit like me and my rec/pause/rec rant a few weeks back.

I think we all just need to accept that cameras in this range will never have everything we really need.

Steve Wolla · February 15th, 2009, 03:00 AM

Martin / Jeff,
The FX1000/Z5U has gobs of resolution, can you just "zoom in" in post? I've done that before and have not seen any meaningful deterioration in quality. Seems that may give better quality than using the digital zoom, though it may depend on the extent to which you need to zoom in beyond the optical 20X.

Jeff Harper · February 15th, 2009, 04:39 AM

Not a bad idea Steve.

Overall, the f-drop (lens ramping) is just an undesirable side effect of having an consumer cam and there really isn't much to do but work around it.

Martin Duffy · February 15th, 2009, 04:11 PM

[QUOTE=Steve Wolla;1012296]Martin / Jeff,
The FX1000/Z5U has gobs of resolution, can you just "zoom in" in post?

Steve thanks but the nature of what I will be doing is film and record "live" to DVD. Sometimes I am filming from a standing height of 6 feet and my subject can be 80 metres away! I simply need to be able to get in there.

Thinking the Canon 1.4 that Tom uses maybe the go for me.

Trying to spend as little time in front of the computer so please don't suggest anymore post editing - ha ha but true !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

February 14th, 2009, 03:14 AM	#1
Martin Duffy Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 156	20X lens a bluff? Well it seems one is always learing new things in this video game. Tom Hardwick could be spot on when he says there is little difference in the focal length (when zoomed right in) between the Z1 and FX1000/Z5. I just did a comparision with the naked eye between my Sony TRV900 (12X) and the FX1000 (20X) and well there is virtually zip difference. I will pop a test onto my computer and see what the result is but I am really amazed at this & honestly a bit disappointed. As I film alot of sport I am going to need to source a 72mm 1.4/1.5 tele I would think. If not use the 30 digital extender feature although previous cameras that I have used digi zoom on have had mixedresults. Some days the footage looked fine and then other days not so good.

February 14th, 2009, 12:37 PM	#5
Daniel McPake New Boot Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 19	As everyone above have said, its just due to the fact that the Z5's lens starts a lot "further away" due to the lens being so wide on its maximum. But this is a great thing about this camera, as i have found it improves its versatility especially when filming indoors! The only other thing to note is that with the 20x zoom lens, you will (like a lot of high zoom lenses) loose several stops of light and end up with an intial F1.6 going down to F3.4, but it is as i understand it an inherant side effect of all zoom lenses. Edit - Just as shaun says the more expensive one's can keep their F setting all the way though the zoom, e.g. the ex1 lens, it is only 14x zoom i believe but doesn't loose any light at all! __________________ Stake Productions - Director, Editor, Cinematographer, ...Sony HVR Z5E Last edited by Daniel McPake; February 14th, 2009 at 05:29 PM. Reason: Like he said!

February 14th, 2009, 04:20 PM	#7
Tim Akin Major Player Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Newbern, TN Posts: 414	Jeff, when you say you can't use it, is that because there is not enough light? __________________ Tim

February 15th, 2009, 01:20 AM	#12
Martin Duffy Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 156	30X extender Ken, yeah no doubt having a real wide shot will be cool. Whilst I like to get in tight alot of my sports filming is also "wide" as the football play is often in front of me and players and coaches want to see where everyone is standing. Having the ability to be really wide is going to be great. I well may just hit the 30X extender for those crucial moments when the play is well away from me. Its pretty cool how you can assign a button hit it and bang the camera is 30X. My Aussie Rules season starts up soon so I am looking forward to testing this out. Alot of what I do is not going broadcast so a bit of digi zoom distortion here and there may be acceptable. Sometimes its better to capture the moment even if everything is not in the perfect world for us producers. Hate to say it but the person watching at home will not even know the difference but will be a bit more excited seeing the play and "feeling it" as I cam zoomed in more. Guys Aussie Rules is the most brilliiant game to film. I have filmed cars, bikes, people running, dancing concerts, weddings and "footy" for me is just brilliant! Jeff on the lens ramping issue maybe just pop the camera into auto and see if you get some OK results that way. Then you are just concentrating on getting a good frame (that's of course if auto iris is doing the desired job). Hoping that may work but I can see your frustration when you have to change the way you film because a new camera doesn't do what the old one did. A bit like me and my rec/pause/rec rant a few weeks back. I think we all just need to accept that cameras in this range will never have everything we really need.

February 15th, 2009, 04:11 PM	#15
Martin Duffy Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 156	editing [QUOTE=Steve Wolla;1012296]Martin / Jeff, The FX1000/Z5U has gobs of resolution, can you just "zoom in" in post? Steve thanks but the nature of what I will be doing is film and record "live" to DVD. Sometimes I am filming from a standing height of 6 feet and my subject can be 80 metres away! I simply need to be able to get in there. Thinking the Canon 1.4 that Tom uses maybe the go for me. Trying to spend as little time in front of the computer so please don't suggest anymore post editing - ha ha but true !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

February 14th, 2009, 04:03 AM	#3
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,509	Did a comparison with my xh-a1 which also has 20x zoom and mine was able to zoom in further then the fx1000, not that much but there was a difference. As Per said the fx1000 also has a wider angle lens then the xh-a1 which could explain why it doesn't zoom in the same amount as the xha1

February 14th, 2009, 06:43 AM	#4
John Wiley Trustee Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Byron Bay, Australia Posts: 1,155	The FX1000 has a remarkably wider lens than previous Sony's. I think the FX7 starts at 39mm and goes out to 780mm. The FX1000's angle of view is equivelant to a FX7 with a 0.75 WA adapter mounted.

February 14th, 2009, 03:16 PM	#6
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	This 20x zoom thing, the lens ramping issue particularly, was the subject of my previous rants on the camera. The lens starts from a much wider position as has been stated. So the 20x is not a bluff, it is 20x. But if you're coming from as 2100 or PD series cam it is a huge change. I personally love the wider starting point with the cam, it is fantastic. On the other hand, in my work I find the lens ramping a huge issue for attempting to get a closeup during wedding ceremony when upfront. Because I'm starting wider, by the time I get zoomed in for an extreme closeup the exposure has gone to 3.4, and I cannot use it. I have to stop zooming at a point that is well before I want to be. Unfortunately for me, I had no understanding of the lens technology behind the camera, or of the necessity for the lens ramping with this type of camera and I was very upset at this aspect of the camera. As has been said before it is not a defect, but it is what you get with a 20x zoom on an inexpensive cam. Other than this the FX1000 is a fine camera and I do like it very much.

February 14th, 2009, 06:43 PM	#9
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	No Tim, I can't use it because the iris has closed up to 3.4 and the image is underexposed.

February 15th, 2009, 03:00 AM	#13
Steve Wolla Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 477	Martin / Jeff, The FX1000/Z5U has gobs of resolution, can you just "zoom in" in post? I've done that before and have not seen any meaningful deterioration in quality. Seems that may give better quality than using the digital zoom, though it may depend on the extent to which you need to zoom in beyond the optical 20X.

February 15th, 2009, 04:39 AM	#14
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Not a bad idea Steve. Overall, the f-drop (lens ramping) is just an undesirable side effect of having an consumer cam and there really isn't much to do but work around it.