Recording on the MRC1 during tape replacement at DVinfo.net

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Sony HVR-Z5 / HDR-FX1000
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Old February 27th, 2009, 01:02 PM   #1
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Recording on the MRC1 during tape replacement

In the manual it says that when you record on the MRC1 during tape replacement, the noise of the tape change is recorded. Now what about if you are not using the microphones of the Z5 but the line in for recording, do you still record the noise of the tape change? Has anyone tried this?

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Old February 27th, 2009, 06:42 PM   #2
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Stelios, that's a great point. I can't see how you'd record the sound of the tape replacement if you were using line-in.
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Old February 27th, 2009, 07:00 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stelios Christofides View Post
In the manual it says that when you record on the MRC1 during tape replacement, the noise of the tape change is recorded. Now what about if you are not using the microphones of the Z5 but the line in for recording, do you still record the noise of the tape change? Has anyone tried this?

Stelios
Yes Stelios, I used this option for shooting a live performance over 2,5 hours and it worked beautifully. As far as the noise of tape changing, you would certainly pick it up on a cam-mounted mike, but if the mike is far enough away (to where you couldn't hear it with your ears), you should be able to avoid picking up the noise of ejecting and replacing the tape.

One thing worth noting though, it's only really feasible to change the tape whilst shooting if the cam is tripod mounted, otherwise, you'll never hold it steady enough whilst fiddling with the tape change.
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Old February 28th, 2009, 12:24 AM   #4
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Yes Stelios, I used this option for shooting a live performance over 2,5 hours and it worked beautifully...
Steve
I am also going to record a live show and this is wonderful news then. I just want your experience and your setting you did for the various switches. I am going to have a mono output from the sound console but I want this sound to be recorded in both channels on my Z5. So please let me know if the following setting are correct: XLR INPUT 1 to LINE. CH1 to INPUT 1, CH2 to INPUT 1. Is this right? I will not pick up any sound from the build in internal microphone?

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Old February 28th, 2009, 06:43 AM   #5
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Stelios, one note of caution, the recording can sometimes start a half-second or so after you press the record button and stop a second or so before you hit stop. If you use 'cache', this issue will not be present since the unit will always be buffering. In fact it's generally not an issue anyway since you generally don't start recording at the instant you need to capture footage anyway.
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Old March 1st, 2009, 12:12 AM   #6
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Ken, thanks for the warning but as you correctly said its not an issue at all because no one would actually have his finger on the "trigger" to start shooting just before a singer, dancer, whoever starts to perform.

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Old March 1st, 2009, 08:17 AM   #7
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Stelios, one note of caution, the recording can sometimes start a half-second or so after you press the record button and stop a second or so before you hit stop. If you use 'cache', this issue will not be present since the unit will always be buffering. In fact it's generally not an issue anyway since you generally don't start recording at the instant you need to capture footage anyway.
Ken -- is this behavior only when simultaneously recording to tape? Is it specific for recording to tape in HDV mode, or will it happen in SD mode, too? And will it happen if the tape is continuously recording in HDV, and you stop/start directly on the unit, in either SD or HDV mode? I do a lot of taping where I stop and start briefly to break clips for editing purposes, often with only a couple of seconds gap, and delays are bad for me.

And isn't the length of the cache fixed at something like 10 seconds? So what happens if I start recording the next clip only 3 seconds after the previous clip? Does it go back in time and overlap the previous clip by 7 seconds, or does the cache write in what it has (3 seconds), or does it freak out?

-Terence
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Old March 1st, 2009, 09:03 AM   #8
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Terence, I believe the behavior is regardless of tape or tapeless mode. But again, the delay is no more than 1 second and can be minimized with a faster card. I don't see a difference in delay between SD and HD and I guess that makes sense since the bitrate is essentially the same.

As far as cache length goes, it is fixed at about 14 seconds. I haven't used it since I don't see a real need for it in my general shooting pattern, but I believe when you use cache and stop the recording, it can take quite a bit longer for the data to complete writing to the card (Sony says as long as 30 seconds). As I said above though, when not using cache it only takes a second or less when using a high speed card.
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Old March 1st, 2009, 10:20 AM   #9
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Cache v. Relay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Stelios, one note of caution, the recording can sometimes start a half-second or so after you press the record button and stop a second or so before you hit stop. If you use 'cache', this issue will not be present since the unit will always be buffering. In fact it's generally not an issue anyway since you generally don't start recording at the instant you need to capture footage anyway.
KEN It's a moot point if you're shooting in relay mode, because you can only use 1 of the three modes (Relay, Cache, Synchronous) at any one time so, if you're shooting in Relay Mode (which is what Stelios is after), you can't use Cache Mode anyway. On the other hand, if you're talking about the memory card itself, then the time taken to write data to memory will indeed be governed by the speed of the card but I don't believe this is cached in the same way as writes to PC disc.

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Originally Posted by Stelios Christofides View Post
Steve
I am also going to record a live show and this is wonderful news then. I just want your experience and your setting you did for the various switches. I am going to have a mono output from the sound console but I want this sound to be recorded in both channels on my Z5. So please let me know if the following setting are correct: XLR INPUT 1 to LINE. CH1 to INPUT 1, CH2 to INPUT 1. Is this right? I will not pick up any sound from the build in internal microphone?

Stelios
Stelios If you are shooting in mono, you only really need to record on 1 channel but if you want to record MONo on BOTH channels, you are correct in your assumption that, if your input is on INPUT1, then both your CH1 & CH2 want to be set to INPUT1
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Old March 7th, 2009, 12:18 AM   #10
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I intend to buy the Z5 with the CF recorder as a second backup camera. After reading this thread, could someone kindly explain to me whether I'm understanding right - so if one is recording to the CF card wouldn't the recording start immediately once you press the record button? Is there a delay?!

I shoot a lot of fast short shots (ENG type) where instant recording is 100% crucial - it's not like shooting an interview where one will start rolling quite a few seconds before.
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Old March 7th, 2009, 08:04 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Brian Cassar View Post
I intend to buy the Z5 with the CF recorder as a second backup camera. After reading this thread, could someone kindly explain to me whether I'm understanding right - so if one is recording to the CF card wouldn't the recording start immediately once you press the record button? Is there a delay?!

I shoot a lot of fast short shots (ENG type) where instant recording is 100% crucial - it's not like shooting an interview where one will start rolling quite a few seconds before.
Brian
I haven't actually timed it, but I have noticed that when I record on the CF recorder when I press record button I see the red "record" light comes up straight away, where as when I record on tape it takes a few seconds.

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Old March 7th, 2009, 08:42 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Brian Cassar View Post
I intend to buy the Z5 with the CF recorder as a second backup camera. After reading this thread, could someone kindly explain to me whether I'm understanding right - so if one is recording to the CF card wouldn't the recording start immediately once you press the record button? Is there a delay?!

I shoot a lot of fast short shots (ENG type) where instant recording is 100% crucial - it's not like shooting an interview where one will start rolling quite a few seconds before.
Brian, if 'instant recording' is very critical to your shooting style, I'd stay away from HDV tape recording in general. I happen to think that the combination of the CF Recorder and the Z5 is dynamite, but it will not record to tape, in many instances, the very instant you hit the record button unless the camera is still in 'standby'.

I haven't tried the combination of tape + CF Recorder for a paid shoot, but if you have the camera on long enough, the tape mechanism will go into 'idle' mode and not instantly come out of that mode when you hit the record button. However, I believe the CF Recorder would do that quicker in the same scenario since there's no concern about tape spinning against the head for long periods of standby time.
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Old March 7th, 2009, 08:52 AM   #13
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Thanks Stelios and Ken. Yes I'm new to HDV recording. I'm used to the DVCAM (Sony DSR 300) and to the XDCAM EX (EX3). Both record instantly once you press the record button. However even on the DVCAM, if the camera was on a long idle time, the tape used to be released from the recording heads and then it used to take some seconds to start recording.

My concern is: if I'm recording and pausing in quick successions (the time between recording one shot and another would be a matter of seconds) to both the tape and the CF recorder, would the CF recorder and tape record instantly when I hit the record button or would the CF recorder start immediately and the tape a second (or something) later?

Does this mean that if one had to record on to the CF recorder and the tape simultaneously the footage on both media would be slightly different (due to the fact that the CF media would have about a second more of footage per shot)?

I hope I made myself clear in my questioning - if not I'll reword my queries.....
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Old March 7th, 2009, 08:56 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Brian Cassar View Post
Does this mean that if one had to record on to the CF recorder and the tape simultaneously the footage on both media would be slightly different (due to the fact that the CF media would have about a second more of footage per shot)?
Yes. At least on my Z7 the CF card and tape do not start and stop at exactly the same time, according to the record indicator lights. I never have tried to sync them during editing. But I am pretty sure they would be slightly off.
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Old March 7th, 2009, 11:44 AM   #15
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Brian, the CF will start a fraction of a second earlier that the tape. So if you want to start recording immediately you push the record button you must record on the CF. Use the tape as a backup.

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