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Sony HVR-Z5 / HDR-FX1000
Pro and consumer versions of this Sony 3-CMOS HDV camcorder.


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Old April 17th, 2009, 05:49 PM   #1
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FX1000, HDV and 24p

I'm just a hobbyist but this is what I believe to be true.
Yes, the 24p is in a 60i wrapper. That becomes *unwrapped* when you bring it into Vegas Pro 8.0c. with 24p PROJECT PROPERTIES.

This quote from Videomaker ( Camcorder Review: Sony HDR-FX1000 HDV Camcorder ) sums it up nicely.
Quote:
The FX1000 also provides a 1080/24p and 1080/30p Progressive Scan mode that enables nice looking film-like video. You can now secure HDV captures onto tape by way of a 2:3 pull-down, which records to tape at 60i. This divides each frame into two fields, which then reverts to its original state as you bring it into an editing program.
It's as simple as that. Render it out to DVD or for the web with 24p settings and you're good to go.

This 24p business in a 60i wrapper seems to be the most misunderstood concept on this board. Patient posts by Douglas Spotted Eagle and a few other knowledgeable people have helped me tremendously. And the FX1000 is easy peasy when compared with the Canon HV20 with respect to pulldown removal. Man, it was tons more involved than what I'm doing now with the FX1000.

I'll do my best to field your questions but keep in mind that I'm no expert.
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Old April 18th, 2009, 09:52 AM   #2
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Do you have a link to DSE's take on this?

Thanks!
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Old April 18th, 2009, 11:07 AM   #3
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The Advanced Search here would be easy enough to use to find specific posts by D.S.E and Barry Green respectively.
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Old April 18th, 2009, 07:18 PM   #4
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I now understand the confusion.

Vegas will handle pulldown just fine for DV, but NOT HDV.

If you import 24p footage from a Canon XH-A1 or Z5U, you can edit 24p footage. FX1000, HV20 24p footage will be edited as 60i. If on a 24p timeline it will look pretty good, but it won't have that pristine clean look that a pure 24p workflow will give you. I tried this with some hv20 24p footage and there is a double of the image here and there.

If 24p is your thing, I'd lean towards Z5Us,XH-A1s and HV40s.
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Old April 19th, 2009, 12:36 AM   #5
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You are correct, 24p footage from the FX1000 comes into Vegas as 60i, Vegas doesn't covert it. This is not as good as "true" 24p, at least that is my understanding. The Z5 has the real deal, the FX1000 doesn't.
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Old April 19th, 2009, 04:53 AM   #6
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Then how do you two account for there being 24 frames for every second of footage on my timeline?
Btw, the HV20 footage needed to have the pulldown removed BEFORE you brought it to the timeline; either using Cineform or something else. Canon didn't use FLAGS on the extra frames (on the HV20) that Vegas NEEDS to see for it to remove.
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Old April 19th, 2009, 08:12 AM   #7
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I could be wrong but my understanding of this issue is as follows:

Barron, the answer to your question: (again, unless I'm mistaken) Because no matter what kind of footage you place on the timeline, if your use the 24FPS setting in project properties it will show as 24fps at the bottom of the preview window.

I just did it. I opened a project with 60i footage, changed the project properties to 24, and it shows up as 24 fps. Changing the project properties to 24fps in Vegas does not convert 60i footage to 24p. It will remain what it is: 60i, because that is what is coming out of the camera.

Vegas does not do pulldown removal, unfortunately.

You can still edit the footage on the timeline as is, but you should not use the 24fps properties, as that is not what you have.

If you edit it as 60i, which is what it is, it will still have a 24p look, but choppier than if you had performed pulldown removal.

If I'm wrong, and I'd be glad if I was, someone please correct me.
If you do not want to do pulldown removal, the only option we have is to buy a camera with true 24p.

Last edited by Jeff Harper; April 19th, 2009 at 09:50 AM.
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Old April 19th, 2009, 01:28 PM   #8
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I just read in an article that if the video is destined for DVD video and to be played on a televison, it is not necessary to do pulldown removal. Pulldown removal is said to be necessary only for delivery for other types of delivery. So leave your project at 60i, and you will be fine, unless I'm wrong.

Eugenia’s Rants and Thoughts Blog Archive Canon HV20 24p Pulldown
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Old April 19th, 2009, 01:44 PM   #9
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I've read that article before Jeff and didn't remember that part, interesting.
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Old April 19th, 2009, 02:39 PM   #10
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OK, after reading the wikepedia artilcle on 24p, 24p - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

it seems clear that pulldown removal of the FX1000 is not necessary if your final deliver is a DVD, except it would make for smoother editing.

The 24fps footage shot with the FX1000 in the 60i wrapper actually is in some ways ideal, because if the final product is going to DVD anyway, it has to be 60i for the DVD.

So Barron, if you edit your footage as 60i, render it as 60i, it will retain the 24fps characteristics, but in the 60i format that it needs to be.

You would not change the project properties to 24fps because it is still 60i.

I would guess the same is true of 30p footage as well, but I don't know.
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Old April 19th, 2009, 03:22 PM   #11
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This is a very good thread explaining 24 and 30p.

30p in final cut pro: is it worth it? : Apple Final Cut Pro
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Old April 19th, 2009, 07:59 PM   #12
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I'll look for more quotes but let's start with these from this thread,
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/what-happ...moval-hdv.html
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FX1000, HDV and 24p-picture-7.png   FX1000, HDV and 24p-picture-8.png  

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Old April 20th, 2009, 12:46 AM   #13
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I've started a new thread in the Vegas forum where this pulldown removal topic belongs.

At this point, a couple of things are clear to me, but as always I could be wrong.

1. FX1000 24p is in a 60i wrapper. (that much is agreed upon, as it should be since that is what the FX1000 manual states).

2. If your final destination is TV you do NOT want to do pulldown removal, since it needs to be 29fps for TV anyway. So for those using 24p or 30p settings on the camera, the footage is 60i, and should be treated that way. The 24p attibutes are still in there, but they are simply packaged in a 29fps format.

Anyway, I am anxious to read any responses may appear in the Vegas forum on this topic.
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Old April 22nd, 2009, 09:33 AM   #14
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Well Barron, I found an article (link below) by DSE in which he says that Vegas does do pulldown removal automatically if you change the project properties to 24p.

So if DSE is correct, as he likely is, then you are correct and I was wrong.

The thing is we had a long thread regarding this and no one brought this out, we were all talking about having to use neoscene, etc.

That leaves the question of workflow, which DSE does go into in the article. If you are going to shoot 24p I recommend you check it out if you haven't seen it. The section about rendering to DVD is near the bottom.

In the end the discussion is somewhat pointless for me personally, but I am learning a few things.

As a videographer for weddings and small businesses, 24p is but a distraction to me. 30p has much promise, but even that is relatively unimportant.

Video shot in 60i offers the most flexibility in post, and is much more forgiving when shooting. The fact that I'm now using three cameras with widescreen sensors is the most important thing to me on the technical side.

The story being told is what my customers are looking for. The most expensive videographer in this area, that I know of, uses crap cameras that are terrible in low light, but their shooting and editing really grab the customers.

I must say, however, that I have learned a lot from Douglas' article regarding workflow for 24p, and I thank you for your posts.

Using Sony Vegas with the HVR-V1U camcorder and 24p
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Old April 22nd, 2009, 10:26 AM   #15
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So it *seems* like the following is true...

1. 24p in 60i wrapper will not allow for a pure 24p editing experience (don't believe me? try it with a preview window at Best->Full frame)
2. 24p in 60i will however render to a true 24p delivery mechanism.
3. Therefore, the main benefit of true 24p (i.e. like the Z5U, XHA1, V1U's 24scA?) is that you are able to get a true 24p *editing* workflow, but the final 24p rendered product should be the same (or if different, the difference would be imperceptable).

I will test this out tonight now that my FX1000 has arrived. I'll pit its 60i, and 24p against the XHA1's 24F.

Results to be reported by end of week.

-C
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