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Sony HVR-Z5 / HDR-FX1000
Pro and consumer versions of this Sony 3-CMOS HDV camcorder.


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Old June 1st, 2009, 08:44 AM   #31
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I guess it's subjective Jeff, but there's no way in hell I find the image of the 150 superior, let alone the equal of the Sony based on what I've seen. But whatever floats your boat...that's why we have two 'camps'.

As to the three people you mention on the other forum, that's their opinion and I'm sure we could find many respected professionals who feel just the opposite. I know you've often quoted that one videographer, but Jeff, he's entitled to his opinion and he has his biases just like anyone else. His opinion does not make anything 'fact'.

However, regardless, it does nothing to address the factual benefits of CMOS (power consumption, no smear, better overload protection, color characteristics etc.) of one imager over the other. You can feel one way or the other 'subjectively' about an overall image, but the facts of the imager characteristcs are what they are.

I would also be very cautious about generalizing "CCD vs CMOS" based on one camera from each grouping. You could find 2 CMOS-based cams that would behave entirely differently just as you could find 2 CCD-based cams that would look totally different.

I also find your comment about 'selling the Sony in a heartbeat' (if it weren't for Panasonic's AVCHD) to be a bit odd since you never said the image of the Panasonic was superior. You generally seemed to see them as close in quality. So I can only imagine your motivation is entirely based on RS, which you've made clear many many times that you hate.
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Old June 1st, 2009, 09:13 AM   #32
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Show me one person who has sold the Panasonic for the Sony. If you can show me one of those, then show me a few more. BTW, the people who have both cams tend to hang in the Panasonic forum, not here, at least that is what I have found.

Here's a typical comment from a Panasonic user (Norman G): "I initially bought an FX1000, then an HMC150. I liked the HMC150 so much I sold the FX1000 (took a $500+ loss) and bought another HMC. Go shoot with it. I'm confident you'll like it much better than the FX1000 in short order. Too cumbersome for run & gun. The HMC is so much lighter and it's far better balanced. No rolling shutter. Tapeless. XLR. The FX1000 was slightly better in low light but not enough to outweigh all of its disadvantages."

Ken, I actually like my Sony FX1000 images quite a bit. It is a fine camera. I don't prefer the Panasonic overall, but for wedding video it is better suited in many ways.

I think I might have see ONE person around here who sold the Panasonic for the Sony, but I'm not sure. I do remember one person who sold off the Panasonic if I'm not mistaken.

My comment about selling the Sony's is not odd. I'm a wedding videographer. Rolling shutter is not a plus, and the best any one can say bout it is that "No one will notice".

One thing you hear from those who have both, and their are a few around, is that they stongly prefer the image of the Panasonic. I have never heard the reverse. But of course now that I've said that someone will. I personally don't prefer one image over the other. I really like the image from my Sony for sure, but it is not better, it is different.

I believe that for image quality and tone, the Sony is very suitable for Corporate work. I believe the Panasonic is especially useful for creative videography. One cam is not better than the other, they are different tools that are best suited for specific purposes. I don't think their is any doubt that the Panasonic offered much more bang for the buck at $3195, but now they have raised that price to $3495.

I'm going to stop now and let you have the last word, I need to be done with this for today.

Last edited by Jeff Harper; June 1st, 2009 at 10:55 AM.
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Old June 1st, 2009, 01:30 PM   #33
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I really don’t think Sony or any other companies are using CMOS to line their pockets.
In most ways it is more efficient. It’s the same as all technological advances. I’m sure
at some point down the road the CMOS will become significantly better. Some people
still haven't gotten over losing DOS on their computers. With CMOS you’re getting HD with
better low light, more affordable pricing, vivid colors, etc. The rolling shutter is something
we’re not used to seeing so it will look different. You lose the entire frame with CCD but that is what people have become accustomed to seeing. RS is more like film which is what people are striving for these days anyway. As time goes on, you will see more and more of this on TV and it will be accepted as the norm. As a side note, AVCHD sucks. I've also heard
of a lot of problems with the 150's solid state issues and sound. You and I have tape backups on our cameras.
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Old June 1st, 2009, 01:39 PM   #34
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Selling the Panasonic for the Sony is an indication of absolutely nothing other than the person that did it had some reason that made it work for him. I don't see 'waves' of people doing this. Jeff, let's look at the reasons why the guy you quoted loves his Panny and traded:

* Tapeless- So is the Z5 when coupled with the MRC. Now you have BOTH tape & tapeless...best of both worlds as far as I'm concerned. A 'win win'.

* XLR- So does the Z5...so? He got the wrong camera (FX1000) if that's what he wanted

* Lighter- With a tripod that's a non-issue, but yes, I would like the Z5 to be lighter. Enough of a reason to change to a camera that produces an image that's not as good (in my opinion) and certainly not as good in low light and uses a format that's very tough to edit? Nope, not for me.

When you say you haven't seen people switching from the Panny to the Sony...well Jeff, everyone that still owns a Sony apparently doesn't agree with that. Why not take a look at sales of the two cameras? That might be a better indication of the concensus out there. There are motivations that some people have for buying equipment that have nothing to do with image quality. Many people will buy on price and the Panny is cheaper compared to a Z5 equipped with the MRC. I've seen tons and tons of people do all kinds of rationalizing when they buy cheaper equipment because their budget didn't allow better, more expensive equipment. I see it in forums on consumer cams as well as prosumer cams. I see it for virtually any kind of equipment you can think of.

I'm not saying all Panny owners are in that category, but I'd bet the bank some are!!!

Jeff, my only gripe with your comments is that you are constantly pushing & praising the 150 on a Sony forum. All these cameras have their pluses & minuses (yes my friend, even the 150) and it's fine to point them out on their respective forums. But constantly touting the 150 on a Sony forum is not what I consider to be useful information to people using Sony camcorders. That's what the Panasonic forum is for. I see this all the time on other forums and it's almost like 'trolling'. I know that's not what you're doing Jeff, but the end result isn't much different.
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Old June 1st, 2009, 01:42 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Morse View Post
The rolling shutter is something
we’re not used to seeing so it will look different. You lose the entire frame with CCD but that is what people have become accustomed to seeing.
Rob, that's the point I've made many times here. With CCD you blow out an entire frame. If you prefer that 'look' then so be it. But I honestly don't think RS is the death knell for CMOS. They have too many advantages that CCD simply does not have.
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Old June 1st, 2009, 01:53 PM   #36
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Quite right. Look at example 1 on page one of this thread (the Roxette press conference screengrabs): it is how the frame would look on a CCD-camera, when a photoflash goes off. Example 2 is how it looks most of the time with the Z7 (= Z5 as far as imager is concerned). I know what I prefer!
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Old June 1st, 2009, 02:01 PM   #37
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Luc what kind of CCD camera are we talking about?

I've got footage of a cake cutting with flashes going off on the Panny and the Sony and the difference is significant to me. Same with the introduction of the bridal party.

The Panasonic did not lose focus or change exposure in any way that I could see, it looked perfect. The Sony looked great, as always, till the flashes go off, then the half frame coverage of the flashes due to RS was made was quite obvious.

I don't hate CMOS per se. But running these two camera side by side and viewing the footage side by side on the timeline the differences are plain to see.

As I've said, I REALLY like the Sony. It looks great. And yes I hate the RS, but I can live with it. But the Panasonic is very nice as well. There are definitely advantages to CCDS over CMOS, and I suppose vice versa.

As you point out Rob, AVCHD really does suck. It is why I just sold the camera!

There are those making AVCHD work but good Lord what a pain I have found those files to be. After only a few days I couldn't deal with it any longer.
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Old June 1st, 2009, 02:09 PM   #38
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Jeff, without sounding 'flip', and I'm really not trying to be, I truly believe you should work out the AVCHD editing routine and get/keep the 150.

Even if you need to buy a high-end computer, I honestly don't see you happy with a Sony. If I were you I'd switch to the Panny after investigating the AVCHD editing process and how you can make it work. There are people that are doing this and having good luck with it.

But seeing how you feel about the Sony and its RS, I don't see how you can stay with it.
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Old June 1st, 2009, 02:51 PM   #39
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Actually you've suggested that before Ken. Since I own both cameras I feel I can pretty much judge the cameras pretty objectively. And I must say I have found that the results have confirmed what has been said about both cameras. And yes, you are being snarky, but that is ok, I can take it.

I have stated quite clearly I like my Sonys overall. If the workflow with the Pannys were better than it is, I would sell the Sonys in a heartbeat. But they don't, so I'm sticking with the Sonys. These are business decisions based on what I feel I need to do to stay profitable and to have a fast workflow, not based on loyalty to any brand or model.

I run an i7 workstation with a dual power supply running at 3.8 with 12GB of ram and Velociraptor drives, so my computer is decent enough to run pretty much any common video file.

I'm not in love with either camera. On occasion however I do love some of the images they produce. But in the end they are tools, nothing more. And if anyone wants to diss either of them, that's OK. I do find that Sony users tend to be more loyal and more biased toward their cameras.

I have just sold the Panasonic (actually sale is pending till Friday) and it is a shame. It is a fantastic camera that happens to shoot in the sucky AVCHD format. I am still torn about it, but what are you going to do? Unfortunately there is no pefect camera, but the Pansonic, IMO comes closer than the Sony.

Last edited by Jeff Harper; June 1st, 2009 at 03:01 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old June 1st, 2009, 07:42 PM   #40
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Jeff, there was no intent to be 'snarky' (or did you mean 'snarly'? :)). But even in your last post you say 'I like my Sonys overall' and then go on to say again "I would sell the Sonys in a heartbeat". Kind of like telling your wife you love her and then smacking her around. ;)

But again, my main objection to some of your posts is the consistant elevation of the 150 relative to the Sony in a Sony thread. I think your posts are entirely appropriate in a Panasonic forum, just not a Sony forum.

We get that you think the Panny is a superior camera to the Sony if it wasn't for AVCHD...we get that. But I just don't think the constant drum-beat of that theme is appropriate here. But that's me.

And when you mention that Sony owners are more loyal and biased toward their cameras, perhaps there's a reason for that...as in they consider THOSE cameras produce the best image?
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Old June 1st, 2009, 09:58 PM   #41
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Come on now Ken, appropriate? The original topic was basically questioning CMOS vs CCDs, so I think all the posts, yours and mine and everyone else's have been perfectly appropriate. This has been a perfectly civil and healthy debate, IMO.

Speaking of CMOS, has anyone shot with the HDR-XR500v yet alongside a FX1000 or Z5? I just discovered these in another thread and they appear to be amazing little cameras. These are, of course a 1/2" cmos chips and I am thinking about getting one or two.
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Old June 1st, 2009, 10:09 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Harper View Post
... has anyone shot with the HDR-XR500v yet ... These are, of course a 1/2" cmos chips ...
No, they're not. They are 1/2.88", or just over 1/3". The video they produce is stunning.

Sony | HDR-XR500V 120GB High Definition Handycam | HDR-XR500V

HDR-XR520V | HDR-XR520V 240GB High Definition Handycam® Camcorder | Sony | SonyStyle USA

Things you should know about the 500/520 before you rush out and buy one (they're the same except for HDD size): They're AVCHD, which you've already said you don't like. Despite having a chip about the same size as the FX1000/Z5, they're about half as light sensitive at the same shutter speed (and we all know how you feel about low-light). They don't have a LANC input -- none of the new compact Sonys do -- so you can't use any LANC remote controllers you might have. And they're still CMOS; your feelings about that are pretty clear as well.

XR500/520 Manual

I'm begging you to download and read the manual before you buy one of these so you know what it can and cannot do. You really need to be a little less impulsive and do more research before you buy, Jeff, or we'll see still more posts about yet another quick purchase that you're disappointed with and are trying to sell. All due respect, of course ;-).

Last edited by Adam Gold; June 1st, 2009 at 10:49 PM.
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Old June 1st, 2009, 10:38 PM   #43
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Actually I was wondering about the long clip thing you mentioned, I wonder if the memory card duo has the same file size limitations as the other cards. I'll be checking that out.

Its good to be in a forum where people know you, how else would I get such specific tips and advice?

Actually, I have resolved the AVCHD issue, at least for the Panasonic. I shot a wedding over the weekend but only late afternoon did I figure out the transcoding thing, and it worked beautifully with the Panasonic transcoder. It was a piece of cake.

The transcoder wouldn't work on the first wedding because it was shot in 720p. I shot Friday in 1080i and it transcoded quickly and painlessly.

I since cancelled the sale of the camera and am giving it another run this weekend.

Thanks for the link Adam. I have seen the listing at B and H and was shocked at the low price of the cam for the quality of it. Very nice.
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Old June 1st, 2009, 10:46 PM   #44
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The Memory STICK is for stills only, not video. Video goes to the HDD. But the manual makes no mention of any file size limitation.
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Old June 1st, 2009, 10:52 PM   #45
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Actually I just read a review and now understand the role of the memory stick which makes sense. As a Sony owner I should have known instantly the stick was for stills, especially since it is a hard drive cam. I have never used a video camera for stills so it never even occurred to me. I thought the stick was some kind of supplemental memory for video.

Anyway Anderew, I just re-read some of Ron Evans' posts and he said that using the Sony software you can have hours of footage come off of the drive as a single file if that is how it was recorded. Sweet, eh?
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