Is that a problem with FX1000?

Jeff Kellam · June 8th, 2009, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

I just can't see how you could be getting consistently 'noisy' results with the FX1000 Jeff. Are you setting a gain limit or are you letting it run wild? These cams are so noise-free relative to the competition, it's just very odd that you are getting these results.

Even in corporate work I shoot in some low lit factory environments and would never classify the results as 'noisy'. In fact they're very comparable in terms of noise to my VX2100.

I think Jeff said they were both on auto & I would assume that means default menu settings too.

The HMC-150 kinda looks like it is on the F3 "SparK" scene file setting.

Tweaked, I guess both cameras would be very different. However, the Panasonic will always lean toward a cooler output unless the WB skew is used.

Jeff Harper · June 8th, 2009, 01:02 PM

Actually Ken, I shoot under the conditions the video stills came from frequently and the results of the Sony here is quite typical. The photos on the right side of the page are from the Sony and on the left the 150.

I have to say I was shocked at the vibrancy of the colors and the blackness of the blacks of the 150, I never in a million years would've expected these results. I figured the Panasonic would have appeared much softer from what I have seen and read about it.

But this is in line with what Mark has said, under increased gain the 150 is cleaner.

I had been scheduled to sell the Panasonic today, and the buyer has put it off till Sunday, but I gotta tell you these results make me question things a bit. If the prices on the damned Pansonics had not gone up $400 each I would seriously consider jumping, but economics dicates otherwise.

For those that shoot in studio or under great lighting conditions, there is really not much to compare, but these results from a dimly lit church are interesting to say the least.

Jeff Harper · June 8th, 2009, 01:06 PM

Ken I get noisy results because these are dimly lit envioronments. Do you shoot in dark/dim environments? If so you would know this, and I don't say that to be smart, but it is just the situation in dark enviroments. This is what happens in low light my friend. From what I gather Ken this is not the kind of shooting you do, so I can understand your confusion. Weddings are tough to shoot and they stretch a camera to the limit from overhead sun to dim reception halls.

Jeff Harper · June 8th, 2009, 01:09 PM

Actually Jeff, I'm not sure what the spark setting is....I took the images directly off of the Vegas timeline untouched...

Jeff Kellam · June 8th, 2009, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

For those that shoot in studio or under great lighting conditions, there is really not much to compare, but these results from a dimly lit church are interesting to say the least.

That is a good point and I agree. In another thread I compared my HMC-150 recital stage performance footage to the same footage on an XH-A1. The HMC-150 was quite a bit better in that low light shooting scenario.

As the light goes down, the HMC-150s good reputation for low light handling is well deserved IMO.

Jeff: The HMC-150 scene file setting dial goes from F1 to F6. F3 is the factory spark scene file setting.

Ken Ross · June 8th, 2009, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam

I think Jeff said they were both on auto & I would assume that means default menu settings too.

The HMC-150 kinda looks like it is on the F3 "SparK" scene file setting.

Tweaked, I guess both cameras would be very different. However, the Panasonic will always lean toward a cooler output unless the WB skew is used.

Neither was correct. The left side shots were too cool and the right too warm. This is why it's not wise to use automatic on any camera. MWB is your friend.

Ken Ross · June 8th, 2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

I had been scheduled to sell the Panasonic today, and the buyer has put it off till Sunday, but I gotta tell you these results make me question things a bit. If the prices on the damned Pansonics had not gone up $400 each I would seriously consider jumping, but economics dicates otherwise.

Well, as I said, I've never ever gotten such warm, low-contrast images out of my Z5...even in full auto. So that's why I'd never think it was the FX1000. It's hard to believe the Z5 & FX1000 are set up so differently.

But I'll tell you Jeff, $400 is a small price to pay to get rid of a camera that you are finding so annoying. Again, I'm trying to just give you some advice. If I felt the way you do about my Z5 (and I surely don't since I seem to have such different experiences), I'd sell it in a heatbeat and the extra $400 would be a tiny price to pay for less aggrevation...but that's me.

Jeff Harper · June 8th, 2009, 01:19 PM

Ken, if you are a corporate videographer you have much control over your environment. You can take the time to change settings as needed. This is often not possible when shooting on the run.

You likely get great results in your relatively controlled envioroment, I wish I could take the time to tweak my cameras for every wedding but I can't.

Jeff Harper · June 8th, 2009, 01:22 PM

Does anyone know of some general place to begin to tweak the FX1000 to get more vibrant color reproduction and blacker blacks such as with the images from the Panasonic?

Ken Ross · June 8th, 2009, 01:23 PM

Actually Jeff, I seldom work with lights. I try to be as non-obtrusive in corporate/industrial settings as I can.

I find that both my Z5 & VX2100 allow me to shoot in virtually any kind of dim lighting that I encounter. On occasion I'll go into dimly lit rooms that might be housing 55 gallon drums of hazardous materials.

I'll see gain go up to +18db, but noise is commendably low. If I'm shooting a CEO, that's a different story and lights might be prudent.

Ken Ross · June 8th, 2009, 01:27 PM

Jeff, black compensation, knee point and gamma can all impact on the kind of picture you may be looking for. It shouldn't be too difficult to get a high contrast image like the ones you showed.

Getting a cooler image (which also can fool the eye into thinking there's more detail & contrast) is also relatively easy to adjust. Try your WB shift control that I believe is also on the FX1000.

The Z5 gives you more of these types of adjustments.

Jeff Harper · June 8th, 2009, 01:36 PM

I'll play with those settings Ken, thanks.

Ron Wilber · June 8th, 2009, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

Ron, I don't agree about the Sony being clean and sharp, at least not when the going gets tough. Overall the image from the camera, IMO is somewhat soft and noisy in low light. I have felt that way since I got my first one in October of last year.

To clarify, when I talk about noise I talk about the base noise with no gain added. The native camera noise that exists when the scene is properly lit. From what I've observed so far from raw files on the net, the hmc has horrid compression noise, and the fx1000 has more noise than I would have hoped for... but the fx1000 noise isn't destructive to the footage as the hmc noise..

Jeff Harper · June 8th, 2009, 03:28 PM

Thanks for clarifying Ron. I own both cameras and I've shot three events with the HMC150, and the compression noise you mention, I don't see it. I'm not saying it is not there, but I haven't seen it.

When a scene is properly lit both cameras are so close to identical in image quality (differences is characteristics of course exist) I don't even see an issue with either one.

As a wedding videographer, virtually no scene I shoot in a 10 hour day is properly lit, so I am much more keen on low light characteristics of the cams then you might be, and less interested in how they look in perfect light, though of course I am interested, just not as much as maybe you are.

Tim Akin · June 8th, 2009, 03:42 PM

Jeff, you need to give shooting in HD, editing in HD and rendering to SD a try again. I'm not sure if that has anyting to do with grain or not. I can see grain when viewing the timeline on my HD monitor, but none when playing back the final dvd on the big screen. I have the 1000 set to 6db max for ceremony and 12db for receptions.

June 8th, 2009, 03:42 PM	#105
Tim Akin Major Player Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Newbern, TN Posts: 414	Jeff, you need to give shooting in HD, editing in HD and rendering to SD a try again. I'm not sure if that has anyting to do with grain or not. I can see grain when viewing the timeline on my HD monitor, but none when playing back the final dvd on the big screen. I have the 1000 set to 6db max for ceremony and 12db for receptions. __________________ Tim

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June 8th, 2009, 01:02 PM	#92
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Actually Ken, I shoot under the conditions the video stills came from frequently and the results of the Sony here is quite typical. The photos on the right side of the page are from the Sony and on the left the 150. I have to say I was shocked at the vibrancy of the colors and the blackness of the blacks of the 150, I never in a million years would've expected these results. I figured the Panasonic would have appeared much softer from what I have seen and read about it. But this is in line with what Mark has said, under increased gain the 150 is cleaner. I had been scheduled to sell the Panasonic today, and the buyer has put it off till Sunday, but I gotta tell you these results make me question things a bit. If the prices on the damned Pansonics had not gone up $400 each I would seriously consider jumping, but economics dicates otherwise. For those that shoot in studio or under great lighting conditions, there is really not much to compare, but these results from a dimly lit church are interesting to say the least.

June 8th, 2009, 01:06 PM	#93
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Ken I get noisy results because these are dimly lit envioronments. Do you shoot in dark/dim environments? If so you would know this, and I don't say that to be smart, but it is just the situation in dark enviroments. This is what happens in low light my friend. From what I gather Ken this is not the kind of shooting you do, so I can understand your confusion. Weddings are tough to shoot and they stretch a camera to the limit from overhead sun to dim reception halls.

June 8th, 2009, 01:09 PM	#94
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Actually Jeff, I'm not sure what the spark setting is....I took the images directly off of the Vegas timeline untouched...

June 8th, 2009, 01:19 PM	#98
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Ken, if you are a corporate videographer you have much control over your environment. You can take the time to change settings as needed. This is often not possible when shooting on the run. You likely get great results in your relatively controlled envioroment, I wish I could take the time to tweak my cameras for every wedding but I can't.

June 8th, 2009, 01:22 PM	#99
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Does anyone know of some general place to begin to tweak the FX1000 to get more vibrant color reproduction and blacker blacks such as with the images from the Panasonic?

June 8th, 2009, 01:23 PM	#100
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Actually Jeff, I seldom work with lights. I try to be as non-obtrusive in corporate/industrial settings as I can. I find that both my Z5 & VX2100 allow me to shoot in virtually any kind of dim lighting that I encounter. On occasion I'll go into dimly lit rooms that might be housing 55 gallon drums of hazardous materials. I'll see gain go up to +18db, but noise is commendably low. If I'm shooting a CEO, that's a different story and lights might be prudent.

June 8th, 2009, 01:27 PM	#101
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Jeff, black compensation, knee point and gamma can all impact on the kind of picture you may be looking for. It shouldn't be too difficult to get a high contrast image like the ones you showed. Getting a cooler image (which also can fool the eye into thinking there's more detail & contrast) is also relatively easy to adjust. Try your WB shift control that I believe is also on the FX1000. The Z5 gives you more of these types of adjustments.

June 8th, 2009, 01:36 PM	#102
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	I'll play with those settings Ken, thanks.

June 8th, 2009, 03:28 PM	#104
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Thanks for clarifying Ron. I own both cameras and I've shot three events with the HMC150, and the compression noise you mention, I don't see it. I'm not saying it is not there, but I haven't seen it. When a scene is properly lit both cameras are so close to identical in image quality (differences is characteristics of course exist) I don't even see an issue with either one. As a wedding videographer, virtually no scene I shoot in a 10 hour day is properly lit, so I am much more keen on low light characteristics of the cams then you might be, and less interested in how they look in perfect light, though of course I am interested, just not as much as maybe you are.