4 Gig limit on CF cards? at DVinfo.net

Julius Smith · April 19th, 2011, 12:16 PM

I noticed a few times that if I'm recording on a CF card (scandisk 32gig 60mb 400x) the audio jumps.

I don't notice anything when recording the clip (it was a 15 minute speech), and I was expecting 1 m2t file, but instead I got 2. I copied both files onto sony vegas V9 and I noticed an audio jump ...The first file size was 4 gig (or was it 3....) and the second file was under 3. I lost about 1 second of audio!

So is there a limit on the CF recording or some setting I missed?

I also did another test and I got the same results above...

Thanks for the help

Adam Gold · April 19th, 2011, 01:03 PM

Yes, there's a limit. Use the ru-util utility supplied with the unit to transfer your files to the PC -- it will rejoin the files and eliminate the glitch.

Jay West · April 19th, 2011, 02:22 PM

Julius,

The "ru_util" software that Adam referred to is the file-transfer utility that comes with Sony's MRC units and is what you want to use with a Windows PC. (I'm assuming that you are using an MRC with your Z5 or FX1000). If you are running Vegas 9 on a Mac (as I gather some people do), I believe that there might be different Mac software or a plug-in of some kind and you might want to use that instead. Your MRC unit shipped with two CDs, one with the manual and one with software. If you cannot locate the software CD, search the "pro.Sony.com" site for the pages with the ru_util software and download it..

For clarity, the MRC units and CF cards use a FAT32 file system which is compatabile with both Macs and Windows PCs. Fat 32 has inherent limits on file sizes. When you shoot a long clip, the MRC splits the clip into separate files every 21 minutes or so (about 4 gb) while writing metadata that allows the files to be seamlessly stitched together on a timeline. There is nothing novel in this. A decade ago, when many computers were still using FAT32 file systems, NLEs used similar file splitting when capturing video from long tapes. The ru_util software basically uses the metadata recorded with the HDV to reverse that process and re-wrap the various files into clips without audio gaps between the splits.

When you simply copy files from the CF card, you do not read the metadata that computers need to stitch over the file breaks. The ru_util software does read the metadata. Even when it transfers multiple files, there will be no audio gaps at the boundaries of files from the same clip. That is why you should use the ru_util for the file transfers..

If you were using a non-Sony device, such as a Datavideo or Firestore, they will either have software or menu settings on the device which basically accomplish the same thing. (Actually, if memory serves, the Datavideo allows you to format the CF cards for NTFS which avoids the file-size issue altogether.)

Adam Gold · April 19th, 2011, 04:08 PM

Well, okay, if you want to get all technical about it... I thought I was being pithy....

Leslie Wand · April 19th, 2011, 05:46 PM

never any problems with utility.....

does anyone use device import with 10? does it do the same stitching?

Julius Smith · April 19th, 2011, 08:42 PM

Thanks a lot guys,,,very detailed info..Yes I do have the ru utility and didn't know why I needed to use it until now.

So can I format the CF card to NTFS? I'll look into Datavideo, but I'm guessing I can format this card within Windows..I hope..

It just makes it easier when dumping the contents of a CF card when on the go (i.e. I hand it off to a co-worker who has a card reader and copies all the files to his pc/laptop). It would be a pain to carry this ru-util around and have people install it)

p.s. Vegas on a Mac??? I thought that was just a rumor...gotta check that out!

Adam Gold · April 19th, 2011, 08:57 PM

No, no, no. If you are using the MRC1k you cannot reformat the card and have it work. You must always format the card in the unit.

Are you using the MRC1k or another unit? If you have ru_util, I assume you have the MRC.

I think what Jay was saying is that you can use NTFS only if you are using a Datavideo branded recorder...

Jay West · April 20th, 2011, 12:00 PM

Julius:

Adam is absolutely correct. I only mentioned DataVideo because I did not know for sure that you were using an MRC unit. Now that you have made clear that you are using an MRC, you should forget that I even mentioned Datavideo.

When Adam says you must do all formatting in the MRC unit, that is absolutely, 100% indisputably true. The MRC manual very clearly says this, too. The MRC menu only allows a "format" without any choice of file system. RTFM.

And, if Adam's advice was too pithy, let me make it umistakeable: IF you want to reformat a card, you: (a) turn on the MRC without it being connected to anything, (b) go into the MRC's menu, and (c) select "format."

Do not try to format in any other way. Never. Ever. While hooking your MRC to the computer results in it appearing as a removable drive, you should never, ever use the Windows "Tools" menu to reformat the CF card. Never ever do that. Never. Ever. And just because you can use ru_util with the CF card in a fast card reader (a good thing), that does not mean you try formatting in the card slot rather than the MRC. Never, ever do that, either.

If you scanned the MRC sub-forum, you would find numbers of threads started by people who were disappointed to learn that "never" really does mean "never."

So, read the manual, use ru-util for file transfers, and use only the the MRC unit to format the CF cards you want to use with it.

Jay West · April 20th, 2011, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leslie Wand

never any problems with utility.....

does anyone use device import with 10? does it do the same stitching?

"10" being Vegas 10? Seems logical, but I don't know. You might want to post this question in the Vegas forum
.

Adam Gold · April 20th, 2011, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay West

So, read the manual, use ru-util for file transfers, and use only the the MRC unit to format the CF cards you want to use with it.

Not only should this be a sticky, but this sentence should be printed out and affixed to every box of every MRC that ships....

Julius Smith · April 20th, 2011, 02:55 PM

Yes, I've always formatted the card in the MRC1k. Thanks for the warnings..

Thanks for the quick responses!

Colin Browell · April 21st, 2011, 12:55 PM

Incidentally, the apparent loss/jump of audio or video is caused because the file split can occur in mid video frame or GOP (or audio frame), so when the 2 files are imported into Vegas they are treated as separate files which look as if they have missing data at the start and end of each file.

The joining of the files is really just a concatenation of the two files. The metadata stores info on which files were split and the order in which they should be joined.

April 19th, 2011, 12:16 PM	#1
Julius Smith Regular Crew Join Date: May 2010 Location: Montreal Canada Posts: 61	4 Gig limit on CF cards? I noticed a few times that if I'm recording on a CF card (scandisk 32gig 60mb 400x) the audio jumps. I don't notice anything when recording the clip (it was a 15 minute speech), and I was expecting 1 m2t file, but instead I got 2. I copied both files onto sony vegas V9 and I noticed an audio jump ...The first file size was 4 gig (or was it 3....) and the second file was under 3. I lost about 1 second of audio! So is there a limit on the CF recording or some setting I missed? I also did another test and I got the same results above... Thanks for the help

April 19th, 2011, 01:03 PM	#2
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	Re: 4 Gig limit on CF cards? Yes, there's a limit. Use the ru-util utility supplied with the unit to transfer your files to the PC -- it will rejoin the files and eliminate the glitch. __________________ "It can only be attributable to human error... This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error."

April 19th, 2011, 02:22 PM	#3
Jay West Major Player Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Red Lodge, Montana Posts: 889	Re: 4 Gig limit on CF cards? Julius, The "ru_util" software that Adam referred to is the file-transfer utility that comes with Sony's MRC units and is what you want to use with a Windows PC. (I'm assuming that you are using an MRC with your Z5 or FX1000). If you are running Vegas 9 on a Mac (as I gather some people do), I believe that there might be different Mac software or a plug-in of some kind and you might want to use that instead. Your MRC unit shipped with two CDs, one with the manual and one with software. If you cannot locate the software CD, search the "pro.Sony.com" site for the pages with the ru_util software and download it.. For clarity, the MRC units and CF cards use a FAT32 file system which is compatabile with both Macs and Windows PCs. Fat 32 has inherent limits on file sizes. When you shoot a long clip, the MRC splits the clip into separate files every 21 minutes or so (about 4 gb) while writing metadata that allows the files to be seamlessly stitched together on a timeline. There is nothing novel in this. A decade ago, when many computers were still using FAT32 file systems, NLEs used similar file splitting when capturing video from long tapes. The ru_util software basically uses the metadata recorded with the HDV to reverse that process and re-wrap the various files into clips without audio gaps between the splits. When you simply copy files from the CF card, you do not read the metadata that computers need to stitch over the file breaks. The ru_util software does read the metadata. Even when it transfers multiple files, there will be no audio gaps at the boundaries of files from the same clip. That is why you should use the ru_util for the file transfers.. If you were using a non-Sony device, such as a Datavideo or Firestore, they will either have software or menu settings on the device which basically accomplish the same thing. (Actually, if memory serves, the Datavideo allows you to format the CF cards for NTFS which avoids the file-size issue altogether.)

April 19th, 2011, 04:08 PM	#4
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	Re: 4 Gig limit on CF cards? Well, okay, if you want to get all *technical* about it... I thought I was being pithy.... __________________ "It can only be attributable to human error... This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error."

April 19th, 2011, 05:46 PM	#5
Leslie Wand Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: upper hunter, australia Posts: 1,410	Re: 4 Gig limit on CF cards? never any problems with utility..... does anyone use device import with 10? does it do the same stitching? __________________ www.lesliewand.com.au

April 19th, 2011, 08:42 PM	#6
Julius Smith Regular Crew Join Date: May 2010 Location: Montreal Canada Posts: 61	Re: 4 Gig limit on CF cards? Thanks a lot guys,,,very detailed info..Yes I do have the ru utility and didn't know why I needed to use it until now. So can I format the CF card to NTFS? I'll look into Datavideo, but I'm guessing I can format this card within Windows..I hope.. It just makes it easier when dumping the contents of a CF card when on the go (i.e. I hand it off to a co-worker who has a card reader and copies all the files to his pc/laptop). It would be a pain to carry this ru-util around and have people install it) p.s. Vegas on a Mac??? I thought that was just a rumor...gotta check that out!

April 19th, 2011, 08:57 PM	#7
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	Re: 4 Gig limit on CF cards? No, no, no. If you are using the MRC1k you cannot reformat the card and have it work. You must always format the card in the unit. Are you using the MRC1k or another unit? If you have ru_util, I assume you have the MRC. I think what Jay was saying is that you can use NTFS only if you are using a Datavideo branded recorder... __________________ "It can only be attributable to human error... This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error."

April 20th, 2011, 12:00 PM	#8
Jay West Major Player Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Red Lodge, Montana Posts: 889	Re: 4 Gig limit on CF cards? Julius: Adam is absolutely correct. I only mentioned DataVideo because I did not know for sure that you were using an MRC unit. Now that you have made clear that you are using an MRC, you should forget that I even mentioned Datavideo. When Adam says you must do all formatting in the MRC unit, that is absolutely, 100% indisputably true. The MRC manual very clearly says this, too. The MRC menu only allows a "format" without any choice of file system. RTFM. And, if Adam's advice was too pithy, let me make it umistakeable: IF you want to reformat a card, you: (a) turn on the MRC without it being connected to anything, (b) go into the MRC's menu, and (c) select "format." Do not try to format in any other way. Never. Ever. While hooking your MRC to the computer results in it appearing as a removable drive, you should never, ever use the Windows "Tools" menu to reformat the CF card. Never ever do that. Never. Ever. And just because you can use ru_util with the CF card in a fast card reader (a good thing), that does not mean you try formatting in the card slot rather than the MRC. Never, ever do that, either. If you scanned the MRC sub-forum, you would find numbers of threads started by people who were disappointed to learn that "never" really does mean "never." So, read the manual, use ru-util for file transfers, and use only the the MRC unit to format the CF cards you want to use with it.

April 20th, 2011, 02:55 PM	#11
Julius Smith Regular Crew Join Date: May 2010 Location: Montreal Canada Posts: 61	Re: 4 Gig limit on CF cards? Yes, I've always formatted the card in the MRC1k. Thanks for the warnings.. Thanks for the quick responses!

April 21st, 2011, 12:55 PM	#12
Colin Browell Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: UK Posts: 55	Re: 4 Gig limit on CF cards? Incidentally, the apparent loss/jump of audio or video is caused because the file split can occur in mid video frame or GOP (or audio frame), so when the 2 files are imported into Vegas they are treated as separate files which look as if they have missing data at the start and end of each file. The joining of the files is really just a concatenation of the two files. The metadata stores info on which files were split and the order in which they should be joined.