2 new Sony HDV cams with interchangeable lens

[Barry Kay]

Thank your for your reply (and insightful metaphors) David.

The z7 - in my price range - has become more appealing as I think about it.

An adapter that lets you use Sony lens also is very appealing. But does this meanthat Canon and/or Nikon lens could also be used (or do the chips and other features have to be the same?).

I got the idea that this is already being done with the JVC models, using DSLR lens...gosh that could make for some great pics, no?

Can't wait to hear about the hands-on reviews.

[Adam Sparks]

Does anyone know how focusing would work with a DSLR lens on this cam? Could it do auto focus? Or how about zoom with a DSLR lens? It seems like the mechanics of a video lens are different from a DLSR lens... if focus would have to manual, it wouldn't be all that bad, but I'm not familiar with Sony's DSLR alpha lenses.

[Tim Polster]

Adam you bring up a good point.

There is no motorized zoom servo on a DSLR lens, so in many ways they are impractical for "video" work.

They would be fine for "film" type work where prime lenses are often used and focal lengths are chosen for specific reasons with zooming being accomplished by camera movement rather than zoom.

They would also need to have the video camera pick up the f-stop from the lens electronically because the DSLR lenses often do not have an aperature ring.

[Heath McKnight]

People use photographic lenses with the Redrock Micro and others, all the time.

Heath

[Adam Sparks]

Thanks for the responses about the DSLR lens use. This is a great feature, especially since I'm also a photographer with many more lenses than I need. My fisheye lens could be pretty fun, as long as I can remove the shotgun mic so that isn't in view.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by David Parks

The $10500.00 (Probably $9,000 street) shoulder mount camera has HDSSDI out which commands a premium. Also, that camera is aimed at the JVC 250.

Not really. It is aimed at those who will spend $10K and want 1080i. That means CBS and NBC. ABC and ESPN and NASA and Europe all want 50p/60p.

[David Parks]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Not really. It is aimed at those who will spend $10K and want 1080i. That means CBS and NBC. ABC and ESPN and NASA and Europe all want 50p/60p.

Steve,

I have great respect and I normally 98% of the time agree with you. We're probably both right and wrong. But, I could see a small to midlevel TV station buying the shoulder mount version. (I keep forgetting the Model number).

The flexibility of the camera with1080i, 1080p/24/30 does fit into a lot of categories.

BTW OT:, an affiliate is not obligated to broadcast a networks signal in that same format. For example, KTRK, an ABC affiliate here, also a Disney owned station, uses 1080i cameras and broadcasts 1080/60i even though they're receiving 720p from ABC, which is also owned by Disney. Pretty funny how that works. So they're cross converting the signal. I just learned this recently. Remember the affiliates have the right to local airwaves. So, a group of TV station affiliates say owned by Scripps might have contracts with different networks and in the end could care less what the networks do. After all, it is their money. And of course they save money by standardizing across all of their owned TV stations.


Sorry to go OT again: I know that this is petty:

Also, what part of NASA is going 60p? I work contract for Jacobs Engineering on Engineering and Science Group Contract for NASA here at the Johnson Space Center. And everything I'm aware of is 60i. I pretty sure that includes Langley Research Center, Marshall Space Flight, Stennis Space Center, Cape Canveral, and Ames Research.

I'm not saying you're wrong, that this is new news to me. I certainly don't know everything. But, if you have some info, let me know because I work for a NASA contractor who would need to know. Before we end up in a Disney like scenario.

But, I'm starting to like the concept of this camera. Very flexible indeed.

Steve, Email me if you have response so I don't hijack the thread.


Cheers.

[Heath McKnight]

All Scripps TV stations (mostly ABC with one or two NBC affiliates) are going HDV with the HD250 in 720p60 mode.

My friend's station uses a couple of shoulder-mount DVCPRO 50 cameras, along with many more Sony Z1u's and DVX100's.

heath

[David Parks]

Yea I saw that you mentioned in apost somewhere else that Scripps was going JVC 250. I have a JVC 100 that I'm about to sell. Either the Z7 or the XDCAM EX to replace it. It was hard working the past year convincing clients that 720p to 1080i looks fine. With these cameras can let my client pick the format.

It seems like with these 2 HDV cameras and the XDCAM EX, cameras are becoming more and more flexible to shoot in in either format, at a wide variety of framerates.

[Heath McKnight]

To think, in early 2003, all we had was a couple of hand-held pro DV cameras from Canon, JVC, Panasonic and Sony (with the then-new DVX100 being arguably the best). By September 2003, HDV was announced, based on the JVC HD10, and the rest is history.

I think HDV and 24p have really revolutionized the sub-$10,000 camera market, and now P2/DVCPRO HD.

Heath

[Barry Richard]

Originally Posted by Brian Standing

Actually, Heath, I think the CF recorder fits OVER the battery...

The editors seem to imply that the CF recorder slips over the battery itself. And I THINK.... if I can decipher the somewhat random translation... they're saying you could set up the tape to record Standard Definition while simultaneously recording High Definition to the CF card, or vice-versa. I could imagine shooting scenarios where that might be useful.

...

the modular CF recorder attaches w/ a simple latch to the back of the camera.

The 970 battery is internal like the XHA1.

Changing batteries requires first removing the CF recorder (which I dropped once, and no one got alarmed...)

My understanding is that if you wanted, the CF module could be attached via a cable off the camera

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by David Parks

But, I'm starting to like the concept of this camera. Very flexible indeed.

I too am warming to the S270. I think the $10K price blew my mind for a few days. It's 2X - 3X more than the $3000-$4000 camcorders like the VX1000/VX2000. Which means it may be aimed more at institutions rather than at individuals. I can't afford a $10K camcorder and I suspect many who have bought Sony DV and HDV camcorders can't either.

A TV station making the move to HD that's used to spending $25K will find these VERY cheap. They are not going to buy an ergonomic mess like the Canon. P2 is crazy IMHO. That leaves a choice between JVC and Sony at $10K. Now both offer shoulder-cams that ENG requires.

What's interesting is that -- in HDV -- JVC and Sony do not compete on format. JVC does only 720p50/60 and Sony only 1080i50/60. (Both do 24p.) I think this was an original understanding when they did HDV together.

For the Indy filmmaker, the interchangable lens will be neat. Although I would think they would want the 1920x1080 rez and low-light sensitivity the EX1 offers. However, DV tape is both really cheap and offers really simple workflows. So maybe things balance out.

However, given multitude of claims than HDV doesn't handle fast motion well -- something I have not experienced -- Sony needs to assure buyers that the HDV codec is much improved over the Z1.

[Joseph H. Moore]

These cameras seem like strange hacks to me. Sorry, not meant to be inflammatory, but Sony starts on the right track with the EX1, and then they seem to take a couple of steps back with these cross-breeds.

"Let's give these S270's a professional form factor and removable lenses, but then crippled them with small chips, and smoosh the image through crappy HDV compression. We've got so many models out, the target audience probably won't realize that we're capable of delivering a 1/2" chip, full resolution, and better compression at this price point!"

[David Parks]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

What's interesting is that -- in HDV -- JVC and Sony do not compete on format. JVC does only 720p50/60 and Sony only 1080i50/60. (Both do 24p.) I think this was an original understanding when they did HDV together.

Sony needs to assure buyers that the HDV codec is much improved over the Z1.

That is interesting. I didn't knowthat. JVC I guess had an agreement to let HDV2 go to Sony and I guess Canon and kept HDV1 for themselves.

I bought my JVC 100u because the Cineframe on Z1 really did look really crappy to me. I've heard good things about the V1U from guys like yourself so that has built up some confidence in my view of Sony HDV. Now I am really going to sell my HD 100 after nearly 2 years of a very good and sometime very bad experience.

Like most people , until I get some hands-on demos, I'm cannot decide between the Z7 and the EX1.
Cheers.

[Stu Holmes]

Originally Posted by Joseph H. Moore

These cameras seem like strange hacks to me. Sorry, not meant to be inflammatory, but Sony starts on the right track with the EX1, and then they seem to take a couple of steps back with these cross-breeds.

"Let's give these S270's a professional form factor and removable lenses, but then crippled them with small chips, and smoosh the image through crappy HDV compression. We've got so many models out, the target audience probably won't realize that we're capable of delivering a 1/2" chip, full resolution, and better compression at this price point!"

Well the cams were designed to be HDV cams - they werent designed to be XDCAMs. Sony has a product lineup and these cams were designed to fit into that lineup. Its not a matter of saying "well theyre not as good as the EX1". The EX1 is a different codec, higher price point etc and Sony are trying to give everyone options as to what they buy.

I wouldnt disparage the 1/3in Exmor sensors as "crippling" a camera until you've read/seen their performance. These are the same sensor types as the EX1, just a little smaller. They days of taking the attitude of "if it's not got a 2/3in or 1/2in sensor it must be hopeless" are over. Advances in sensor design, (particularly CMOS sensor design), signal-to-noise ratios, and digital signal processing have meant that sensors of a smaller size can now have amazing performance.
As for anecdotal evidence of this - at least one person who's played with a Z7 says that its the best lowlight performance of any HDV cam he's ever used.

As for the price point, the Z7 (for eg) will i'm sure be available on the street at a price thats low enough to appeal to people who maybe were considering an EX1. Dont treat the MSRP as the real price - it won't be.

just my thoughts.