More on the "no profile" setting at DVinfo.net

Chris Harding · July 24th, 2014, 01:57 AM

Hi Guys

I shot a wedding on Monday (yeah I know it's a weird day) and had both cams on no profile and shucks the blacks are certainly crushed!! Even my outdoor shots had very heavy blacks indeed.

Looking at the waveform the whites go all the way to 100% and the blacks all the way to zero (and sometimes the waveform shows little bits below zero. Over the luminescence range my waveform shows basically from 0 - 100% (black to white) At this stage I'm raising the minimum black level up to 11% (clips anything below that) and that looks quite smart in my eyes. The nice thing is that indoor and outdoor settings with the blacks clipped at that level both seem to look good so I don't need to worry whether the shot is indoors or out.

Does anyone know if we can replicate the "no profile" on the camera and copy it into say, PP1 ???
All that would be required is resetting the black level and leave all the rest BUT how do we find out what parameters the "off" setting uses ....everything set to zero .... does anyone know if a typical no profile could be replicated in one of the other settings? If I could find out that then the only parameter that would need tweaking would be the black level and that would be a great profile to use.

Any ideas???

Chris

Steven Digges · July 24th, 2014, 08:40 AM

I have never done a side by side comparison but my "impression" is that there is not a big difference between no profile and P1. I could be dead wrong though. Have you compared them to see if you can easily make P1 the same as what your after?

Steve

Chris Harding · July 24th, 2014, 07:02 PM

Thanks Steve

It would be nice to have the actual parameters that no profile uses though. The blacks are very heavy in my opinion using no profile but everything else is pretty much OK. I would suspect that no profile uses Standard Gamma and with that knee settings are also off. I must shoot some stuff with a fair amount of black in it and see if the black level in PP1 is as intense as in no profile?

I actually like PP3 a lot but need to correct the colour saturation in post but the issue is that when you shoot in PS mode (for me that 1080 50P) you get pixellation and even some posterization on the image that mainly Peter Rush has experienced and it doesn't happen if shot at 1080 50i at all!! Must be a progressive thing?

Just for interest what profile do you use, do you use 60P at all and have had the same issues as Pete ??

Chris

Chris Harding · July 25th, 2014, 08:50 PM

Hi Guys

Well I have just finished a wedding all shot with no profile and honestly I think it sucks! The black level is way too intense and if you lift the black level so the image becomes normal it is correct colour wise but really does lack any punch!! I think I will now eat my words and revert back to PP3 that I have modified slightly to give a tad more saturation.

To avoid any pixellation I know it might shock some but seriously I see no major differences shooting in 50i and editing on a 25P timeline compared to shooting 50P !! OK, admittedly all my weddings are supplied on DVD anyway but I find it hard to spot any difference between FX mode (24mbps) and PS mode (28mbps) ... Maybe it would show up on a BluRay but even on the monitor I fail to see any difference and I have never had a bride complain either!!

So the next will be back to PP3 profile and all I need do if lift the interior shots a tiny bit in Sony Vegas on saturation (I go up to 1.16) and outside shots to 1.33 and it's punchy and vibrant.

Randy?? How did your shoot go using the pp2 profile which is supposed to be for stills? It would be interesting to know?

Chris

Michael Spanheimer · July 27th, 2014, 12:39 PM

i wonder which profile you guys would suggest for a fire/fireworks show at a harbour.
Have that on my schedule in 2 weeks...

Chris Harding · July 27th, 2014, 05:27 PM

Hi Michael

I think even for fireworks I would stick to ITU709 as for me I have found it's a better result to crush the blacks in post rather than try to lift blacks that are too black resulting is contrast loss but then again the no profile will give you high contrast and pitch black sky which is probably what you are looking for for a fireworks display where you really don't need any shadow detail at all. I just don't like the fact that no profile crushes black below the zero threshold

Chris

Chris Harding · July 27th, 2014, 11:02 PM

A few extra thoughts :

Exposure :

I think the last time back in January I used auto exposure (but with a manual lens so it just changed the shutter and gain) I would keep the lens at infinity as they are going to be up in the sky.

What I also do is lock the gain at 21db otherwise the camera "sees" black and ramps the gain upward so your sky becomes noisy and the colour washes out.

The "no profile" setting is less sensitive than the others (just point the camera and flick thru the PP's and you will see that "none" and PP1 are fairly dark ..then PP2 to PP5 get quite bright and then PP6 is dark again. Randy seems to love PP2 which is the stills setting but we haven't had any feedback yet on how it works?

Make sure you post a clip so we can all take a look.

July 24th, 2014, 01:57 AM	#1
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	More on the "no profile" setting Hi Guys I shot a wedding on Monday (yeah I know it's a weird day) and had both cams on no profile and shucks the blacks are certainly crushed!! Even my outdoor shots had very heavy blacks indeed. Looking at the waveform the whites go all the way to 100% and the blacks all the way to zero (and sometimes the waveform shows little bits below zero. Over the luminescence range my waveform shows basically from 0 - 100% (black to white) At this stage I'm raising the minimum black level up to 11% (clips anything below that) and that looks quite smart in my eyes. The nice thing is that indoor and outdoor settings with the blacks clipped at that level both seem to look good so I don't need to worry whether the shot is indoors or out. Does anyone know if we can replicate the "no profile" on the camera and copy it into say, PP1 ??? All that would be required is resetting the black level and leave all the rest BUT how do we find out what parameters the "off" setting uses ....everything set to zero .... does anyone know if a typical no profile could be replicated in one of the other settings? If I could find out that then the only parameter that would need tweaking would be the black level and that would be a great profile to use. Any ideas??? Chris

July 24th, 2014, 08:40 AM	#2
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Re: More on the "no profile" setting I have never done a side by side comparison but my "impression" is that there is not a big difference between no profile and P1. I could be dead wrong though. Have you compared them to see if you can easily make P1 the same as what your after? Steve __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!

July 24th, 2014, 07:02 PM	#3
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: More on the "no profile" setting Thanks Steve It would be nice to have the actual parameters that no profile uses though. The blacks are very heavy in my opinion using no profile but everything else is pretty much OK. I would suspect that no profile uses Standard Gamma and with that knee settings are also off. I must shoot some stuff with a fair amount of black in it and see if the black level in PP1 is as intense as in no profile? I actually like PP3 a lot but need to correct the colour saturation in post but the issue is that when you shoot in PS mode (for me that 1080 50P) you get pixellation and even some posterization on the image that mainly Peter Rush has experienced and it doesn't happen if shot at 1080 50i at all!! Must be a progressive thing? Just for interest what profile do you use, do you use 60P at all and have had the same issues as Pete ?? Chris

July 25th, 2014, 08:50 PM	#4
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: More on the "no profile" setting Hi Guys Well I have just finished a wedding all shot with no profile and honestly I think it sucks! The black level is way too intense and if you lift the black level so the image becomes normal it is correct colour wise but really does lack any punch!! I think I will now eat my words and revert back to PP3 that I have modified slightly to give a tad more saturation. To avoid any pixellation I know it might shock some but seriously I see no major differences shooting in 50i and editing on a 25P timeline compared to shooting 50P !! OK, admittedly all my weddings are supplied on DVD anyway but I find it hard to spot any difference between FX mode (24mbps) and PS mode (28mbps) ... Maybe it would show up on a BluRay but even on the monitor I fail to see any difference and I have never had a bride complain either!! So the next will be back to PP3 profile and all I need do if lift the interior shots a tiny bit in Sony Vegas on saturation (I go up to 1.16) and outside shots to 1.33 and it's punchy and vibrant. Randy?? How did your shoot go using the pp2 profile which is supposed to be for stills? It would be interesting to know? Chris

July 27th, 2014, 12:39 PM	#5
Michael Spanheimer Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Frankfurt Germany Posts: 62	Re: More on the "no profile" setting i wonder which profile you guys would suggest for a fire/fireworks show at a harbour. Have that on my schedule in 2 weeks...

July 27th, 2014, 05:27 PM	#6
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: More on the "no profile" setting Hi Michael I think even for fireworks I would stick to ITU709 as for me I have found it's a better result to crush the blacks in post rather than try to lift blacks that are too black resulting is contrast loss but then again the no profile will give you high contrast and pitch black sky which is probably what you are looking for for a fireworks display where you really don't need any shadow detail at all. I just don't like the fact that no profile crushes black below the zero threshold Chris

July 27th, 2014, 11:02 PM	#7
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: More on the "no profile" setting A few extra thoughts : Exposure : I think the last time back in January I used auto exposure (but with a manual lens so it just changed the shutter and gain) I would keep the lens at infinity as they are going to be up in the sky. What I also do is lock the gain at 21db otherwise the camera "sees" black and ramps the gain upward so your sky becomes noisy and the colour washes out. The "no profile" setting is less sensitive than the others (just point the camera and flick thru the PP's and you will see that "none" and PP1 are fairly dark ..then PP2 to PP5 get quite bright and then PP6 is dark again. Randy seems to love PP2 which is the stills setting but we haven't had any feedback yet on how it works? Make sure you post a clip so we can all take a look.